Gordon Williamson

Gold Wound Badge ( Mattgelbe) in gold laquered steel

John,

With high volume production stuff there is always the possibility of dies being replaced/repaired/reworked etc. With a "between the wars" Imperial U-Boat Badge, already made by several manufacturers, I think the demand would have been low enough that the thought of different variants within one firm has to be pretty remote.

For me, the type shown here ( its actually the obverse of Michel's example) is the only Meybauer I would personally accept as good.

Okay, I know its a crappy picture but lets see who can come up with any ideas about this one.

Here is a shot of an original Meybauer. Compare the areas ringed. Whilst the other one is close, the differences are definitely there and not just due to the angle of the photo etc.

I've been trying to keep to purely Japanese (big enough challenge on its own) as opposed to drifting into the associated states as well, but I couldn't resist this one, especially as it was so reasonably priced.

Thanks Paul !

I guessed they have had to be pretty scarce. All I've ever seen is a monochrome obverse view. I won't hold my breath on hoping to find one of these then.

Wondering if Paul, or any other member, has any images of a Type I Sen'Sho or Ko'Sho Wound Badge (the shield shaped one) ??

Beat me to it. I was about to ask the same question myself having just picked up this one.

I think when we come to Panzer Wrappers there is rare ( the standard wrapper) very rare ( i.e. the SS wrapper), the extremely rare ( maybe an SS wrapper with cuffband or an HG) and then the "off the scale" rare like this one.

I doubt if even a handful of the worlds "advanced" collectors has ever owned one of these. Forget "Totenkopf" or any of the other units deemed desirable, this has to be the "ulitmate" rwapper.

Bill's example shows exactly what I was referring to on later pieces with that flat edge around the reverse.

Chris you make a very good point. It's still common to see references to such pieces as "1957 issue". All 1957 pieces were "private purchase", never issued or awarded by the postwar German government but merely "tolerated" for wear in that de-nazified format.

Whilst there were design and manufacturing specifications, I am not aware of any evidence pointing to specific firms being given official contracts to produce these.

I think the only real worthwhile measure of "originality" is that which separates those which were made in the early postwar period for those surviving vets who wished to wear their awards (not just those who served in the Bundeswehr but those not serving in the military but who might wish to wear their awards at vet reunions etc) and those later pieces which were made purely for the collector market.

However, even this isn't exactly "cut and dried". I know of a number of vets who didn't bother obtaining "57" versions of some of their awards until the 1990s. So is a 1957 piece obtained by a vet entitled to it in 1995 less "authentic" than a "57" version obtained by another vet in 1960 ? One may be poorer quality and less desirable on the collector market but that seems to be the only real difference.

Good original badge by F?ncke & Bruninghaus, L?denscheid.

Yes, it certainly looks like a K&Q.

This is the only known example I am aware of that had any sort of provenance. It was sold a few years back by Detlev Niemann.

Note the smooth fins on the sawfish.

Lovely !!

I can understand why you couldn't resist that one !!!

Personally I don't like these. I did have one myself in the dim and distant past and initially thought it was good mainly because of the nice pin/hinge set up, though the retaining clip was a bit iffy.

The killer for me was coming across several of these with the swastika drilled out to take small imitation diamonds in an attempt to recreate the U-Boat Badge with Diamonds, all identical and all with the 53 in a box mark. No one would take a genuine badge, set the swastika with fake stones then sell it for less than the value of a regular original U-Boat badge.

Somewhere I may have an image of one of these fakes saved. I'll try to find it.

As time went on quality deteriorated, and the profiling was not well executed, leaving excess metal in certain areas. This is a plated set. Still well concaved on the reverse.

Later pieces had much less pronounced concaving and in some examples there is a flat outer edge with only the centre slightly concaved. You can get "real" 57 oaks with almost flat backs.

The quality of the Oaks mirrored the Knight's Crosses, getting poorer and poorer as time went on. On top of that fall off in quality, the 57 Oaks are now being widely faked, along with the 57 Knight's Crosses.

The one posted by Scott looks like it could be a real 57 set from around the mid 1980s but much clearer pics would be needed to be certain.

Early 57 Oaks were made in the same way as the wartime S&L Oaks, with fairly deeply concaved reverse and with the profile cut following the shape of the leaves, very neatly done.

They were made in both solid silver ( as here) and in silver plate.

Looks a bit like Akagi before her refit, or maybe Kaga.

Thanks for posting Marc. That is a truly beautiful example !

Very nice indeed. ! Your friend shouldn't worry too much about the documents which were wrong if he has so much other nice original stuff.

I have fixed the image in post 5

Giorgio,

I believe Michel's example is marked on the pin. Mine is unmarked, but you can always identify a Zimmermann as all four arms of the swastika are cut out. On Mayer and Schickle badges only 3 arms are cut out, the top arm remains solid..

Paul,

Looks OK. There are two distinctly different die strikings for the Schwerin badge. The type shown here has a slightly "fatter" neck, a "raised" area on the foredeck just ahead of the gun, is usually unmarked and has the flat rather than round wire retaining hook. All textbook correct features for this type of striking.

The High Seas Fleet is particularly amusing. Awarded to a crewmember of the Graf Spee ( sunk in 1939) in April 1945, with an ink stamp from a U-Boat Flotilla ( incorrectly designated as the 17th U-Boat Fleet. - I guess D?nitz would have been delighted to know he had so many entire fleets - as opposed to Flotillas available.)

Mind you the last one is even better- an Auxiliary Cruiser document with a Luftwaffe Kampfgeschwader stamp !

Just goes to show we shouldn't be too complacent about what to us seem easily spotted fakes. There will always be some collectors new to the hobby or to document collecting who won't pick up on the clues in incorrectly completed docs especially if the basic fake blank award documents are reasonably accurate to begin with.

Sorry Jan Arne, just about everything that could be wrong with these, is wrong. Very bad fakes.

Here is my Zimmermann, obtained last year in Kassel thanks to the kindness of Marc (Langemarck)