Gordon Williamson

Martin is absolutely correct. The Frank & Reif marked U-Boat Badges are fake.

Georgio,

There are two badges which are almost identical. The badge by Hymmen, sometimes marked L/53, and the one you havee which is almost identical, but with some very slight differences to the eagle head, chest and the U-Boat. Both absolutely genuine examples from the period. Genuine Hymmen badges are very rare.

This is a Hymmen piece. Look very closely at the eagles head and body and around the conning tower of the submarine and you will see several differences.

Good piece even if its not the more common type of pin.

Good original badge, but not by Hymmen

David,

Not in the dark, but out of direct sunlight. I keep them in quite cheap Ikea frames with the glass removed.(having seen some really fragile old framed imperial ribbons where the silk has stuck to the glass) The ribbons are held at the back by low-tack tape, so as not to leave any marks on them. Can be tricky keeping them tensioned and I usually have to re-do everything every few months as they start to droop. As the ribbons get progressively older through Bundesmarine, Kriegsmarine, Kaiserliche Marine they get more fragile and have to be carefully handled so you don't want to risk keeping them too taught and risking them splitting.

Apart from the genuinely non-existent ones (Bismarck, Tirpitz, Graf Zeppelin etc which only exist as modern fantasy pieces) over the years I have had the ribbons for virtually every named surface warship from Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (the biggest ships for which ribbons exist) down to the little Torpedoboote like the M?we etc. SOme are hrader to find than others (Gneisenau much harder to get than Scharnhorst for example) but most turn up eventually.

For me the hardest to find were Unterseebootsflotille Emsmann, some of the Unterseebootstender of which I have three or four still to find and the U-Bootsbegleitschiffe, of which I only have "Saar" so far.

I think the short answer is "NO" they are not. They have become almost like a cult fashion item, a "must-have" thing, a bit like Juncker items whose quality can also often be crap.

Schwerin did do some very, very nice pieces. Their Tombak Auxiliary Cruiser is superb and super rare, their High Seas Fleet is also excellent as is their 1st Pattern E-Boat. The Schwerin destroyer, which often has a misformed swastika, isn't anywhere as nice as GWL's. Thier U-Boat Badge is crap, must be one of the ugliest badges ever made by any firm, the quality of the 2nd Pattern E-Boat is awful, well surpassed by the likes of Adolf Scholze.

Same with Juncker, people will pay double the normal price just to get that L/12 mark on a very average quality EK1.

There probably isn't a single firm where you can say that the whole range of badges they made were terrific quality.

Very interesting alternative. The dimensions certainly allow the rear portion to comfortably contain a pocket watch. Its a shame that the rear portion isn't shaped for whatever sat there in the way that the top plinth is shaped for the EK.

WW1 period German pocket watches turn up from time to time on EBay but I'd like to be certain thats what should really be there before trying to get hold of one to complete this set.

Maybe for a War Honour cross?

Very good suggestion Rich. And of course given its "lowly" status, tucked in behind the EK would be a logical place to store it. Damn, another rare and expensive piece I have to buy to finish this one off.

Rick, Yes there is a split joint on one of the corners. The joints are only soldered anyway, so it would be easy enough to repair, but I have simply pushed it back by hand to "close the gap" and it looks fine.

This shot gives a better idea of how she operated as a "Hebeschiff" or "LIfting Ship" before being designated as the U-Boat School. She effectively just sailed right over the sub, engulfing her completely then using the massive cranes to lift the sub clean out of the water.

Chip,

The gold wire ribbons are for "seem?nisches personnal", silver for "technisches personnal" and red thread letters for "schiffsjunge" or Boy Sailors.

I was pleased to see Paul W.'s WW1 Meybauer U-Boot badge in this thread, as I have been meaning to post mine for opinions, as well, so now seems to be an appropriate time.

With consideration to the points kindly mentioned by Gordon W., I am encouraged by the fact that my badge has a smoothly finished reverse. The "fish tail" pin on mine is slightly shorter than that shown by Paul, but the hinge assembly appears to be the same, as does the Meybauer crest.

With respect to the die characteristics of known genuine Meybauers, specifically the cross in the centre of the crown referenced by Gordon, I have measured the position of the horizontal cross bar on my badge and find that it does sit higher, ie. the top portion being 1.4mm and the lower portion being 1.8mm.

Your opinion and comments on my badge would be greatly appreciated, Gordon and others. Thanks in advance.

John

John,

Comparing yours with images I have of a 100% original piece that Michel owns, I see several small but definite obverse differences in die characteristics with yours, mostly around the crown and the ribbon which lies along the top of the wreath.

I believe Michel has been at Kassel, hopefully when he gets back he will see this and give an opinion comparing with the real thing "in hand" rather than images as I am doing, but I'd have to say that the differences could't be explained away by camera angles etc.

Cheers again Gordon,while we're on the subject of striations,does this Schott look ok to you?

Could do with sharper images but I like what I see. The pin looks wider and flatter than the norm, but this is a known nd accepted pin variant for Schott.

The maker mark, which none of the fakes have got quite right yet, is spot on. Note the first letter "W" and how the first stroke of the letter is very wide. Exactly right, compare the mark with one of mine below.

One of the lesser known ships of the Kaiserliche Marine.

On 27 September 1910, Kaiser Wilhelm II signed an "Allerh?chste Kabinettsordre" which resulted in Marineverordnungsblatt Nr 219 of that year. In it Wilhelm stated that his "Spezialschiff "Vulkan" was to become the home of the first official U-Boat training school as well as its current role as a Lifting Ship (Hebeschiff) and Tender.

The first of the U-Boat flotilla ribbons to be introduced was authorised at the same time (UNTERSEEBOOTS=FLOTILLE). As "S.M.S. VULKAN" was already in existence, it became the first ever cap ribbon directly related to Germany's new U-Boat fleet.

Incidentally, wasn't HMS Walker also responsible for capturing Otto Kretschmer?

Sorry, mis-type on my part. As mentioned in post #1, it was HMS Douglas and HMS Imperialist. It was Imperialist who made the first attack and Douglas who was waiting for U-732 when she surfaced. Walker was indeed the destroyer that got Kretschmer.

Here are a couple of shots. Imperialist was an anti-submarine trawler and Douglas a destroyer.

After hearing Max describe being attacked by aircraft at night equipped with "Leigh Lights", being attacked with "Hedgehog" projectiles and a heavy depth-charge attack which saw U-732 plunge to the sea bed in nearly 200 metres of water, in a scene reminiscent of that in "Das Boot", I couldn't but be impressed at the fortitude of these "Grey Wolves". The Royal Navy commander claimed U-732 as sunk and was awarded the DCS for the action.

U-732 wasn't finished yet however, and whilst she sat on the bottom desperately trying to lift off of the sea bed, Max astonished me by recalling that his commander, Oberleutnant Peter Carlsen, was busy thinking, not of whether he might survive, but rather was ordering one more torpedo loaded into the bow tubes so they could attack any enemy in the vicinity as soon as they reached the surface.

In the event when they got to the surface there was no enemy in sight. Believing it safe, Carlsen ordered the diesel motors started, only to be detected immediately by HMS Douglas which was sitting quietly in the darkness with her engines stopped. U-732 came under heavy fire, rendering her unfit to dive. Carlsen ordered "abandon ship" and Max drew the dangerous job of going down below to open all the flood valves to ensure the boat went to the bottom and couldn't be captured. Fortunately he made it and after a spell in POW camp in Canada, came to Scotland where he made his permanent home.

But no longer. I was recently able to pick up a nice original GWL U-Boat Badge at a reasonable price and this afternoon had the great pleasure and privilege of presenting it as a gift to Max to replace the one stolen from him back in 1943.

Well, my disappointment in not being able to make it to Kassel this year was made up for by being able to spend this afternoon with U-Boat veteran Max Quietsch and his son Paul.

Max was Obermaat on U-732 when she was sunk by HMS Douglas and HMS Imperialist. Max was rescued after some hours in the water but his relief in being rescued was spoiled by the fact that one of the British sailors stole his U-Boat Badge.

Fortunately, the superb quality of the original photos Max still retails allowed his badge to be positively identified as a GWL.

Fortunately. Max still has his original Iron Cross but as he pointed out, any serviceman could win the EK2, but only a U-Boat man could get the U-Boat War Badge. The loss of his treasured U-Boat badge has bothered Max for decades.

Good original badge. Certainbly looks like a K&Q. Here is an definite unmarked K&Q for comparison.

The remaining base piece, though now loose as the old "animal" glue has dried out and cracked, the positioning of the glue shows that it was once firmly attached, and thus couldn't be used in the same manner as Terry has shown.

Even removing the plinth exposes a piece of the base stiffener which is not covered with the purple velvet.

So, the purpose of the hook remains somewhat baffling.

The hook is so the case can be displayed open, with the EK2 ring mounted on the hook.... a demonstration please?

My thoughts too Rick. However, although the plinth on which the EK sits is actually a separate, removable piece .............

Textbook L/56. Good original piece.

Exterior. Lid design doesn't leave much doubt over what it's for.

For those who may have missed it in the Forum Sale Room, definitely one of the most unusual cased EK2s I've encountered.

Paul,

Like I said, don't be put off by these striations or machining marks on the back when you are looking at a Schott badge. Good ( in fact essential) to find these on a Schott.

For a Schott smooth back is bad, machined is good. For a Meybauer machined is bad, smooth is good.

If the Meybauer had a machined back with perfect die characteristics on the front, a case could be made for it just being poorly finished, but adding the coarsely machined back with front die characteristics that don't match known originals is, for me, a death sentence on this one.