slava1stclass

Gents,

  This Full Cavalier set sold in Russia in late 2011.  Starting price was 460,000 rubles (slightly over $8,800.00 at today's exchange rate).

Regards,

slava1stclass

​Gents,

  It's currently down to $700.00 BIN.

Regards,

slava1stclass

​Gents,

  He recently slashed it another $100.00 to $800.00 BIN.

Regards,

slava1stclass

​Gents,

  His current BIN price has dropped to $900.00.  Other than this Full Cavalier OGII, the market in the West has been absolutely bereft of any Full Cavalier offerings for many, many months. 

  The heady days of the mid-1990s to early 2000s when Full Cavalier sets and loose Full Cavalier OGs could be found at every turn are but a memory today.

Regards,

slava1stclass  

Gents,

  Full Cavalier O. S. Dzernovich.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

 

  At least this seller is adjusting his pricing in a more realistic manner (see post #497 above).  He just relisted it at $1,100.00 given it hasn't sold to date.  There is something to said for market economics.

 

Regards,

 

slava1stclass

Gents,

  Price has dropped another $100.00 to $1,000.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

 

  This OGII to a Full Cavalier is currently available on the well-known auction site for a BIN price of $1,500.00.

 

Regards,

 

slava1stclass

 

 

Gents,

  At least this seller is adjusting his pricing in a more realistic manner (see post #497 above).  He just relisted it at $1,100.00 given it hasn't sold to date.  There is something to said for market economics.

Regards,

slava1stclass

 

Gents,

 

  Just relisted with another price drop of $1,000.00 to an opening bid of $7,999.00.

 

Regards,

 

slava1stclass

Gents,

  No takers at $7,999.00 so he's relisted - at $8,999.00 BIN. 

Regards,

slava1stclss

Gents,

He's dropped the price for this "set" some $2,500.00 to $8,999.00 as a Buy It Now auction. He has been listing the single OGI and now the same OGI as part of this concocted set for just about 18 months. As explained earlier in this thread (see posts #362, 366 and 369 above) it comes as no surprise.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

Just relisted with another price drop of $1,000.00 to an opening bid of $7,999.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

Not every Full Cavalier image is a pretty one. These two Full Cavaliers fell victim to torture at the hands of the enemy while their prisoners. These are unaltered images.

Full Cavalier Senior NCO P. G. Panasyuk had portions of his ears severed when he refused to divulge information on his unit's disposition to his German captors.

Full Cavalier Junior NCO A. D. Makukha had his tongue sliced twice when he refused to divulge information on his unit's disposition to his Austrian captors. Makukha was able to make it back to Russian lines where doctors saved 3/4 of his tongue. Given the extreme circumstances of his heroism, Makukha was awarded all four classes of the St. George Cross simultaneously. For those who can read Russian, details of Makukha's wartime experiences may be found here: http://gold-manaa.livejournal.com/459710.html

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

As GHB notes, this is clearly a "thrown together" Full Cavalier "set." While OGI s/n 2174 is legit, it was never officially awarded and therefore has no associated OGII or OGIII.

The "advertised" OGII is a doctored OGIII. The "advertised" OGIII appears legit.

In offering OGI s/n 2174 as part of a "Full Cavalier set", the seller is simply trying to move the OGI at his original asking price for the OGI as a stand-alone piece. Steer clear.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

He's dropped the price for this "set" some $2,500.00 to $8,999.00 as a Buy It Now auction. He has been listing the single OGI and now the same OGI as part of this concocted set for just about 18 months. As explained earlier in this thread (see posts #362, 366 and 369 above) it comes as no surprise.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

Today's market has changed considerably.

At the moment, there are no Full Cavalier-related items available via the major Soviet dealers in the United States. As a case in point, for the first time in many years, the annual New York Sale has no Full Cavalier items up for auction.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

This OGII to a Full Cavalier is currently available on the well-known auction site for a BIN price of $1,500.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

This OGII to a Full Cavalier is currently available at auction. Opening bid is slightly over $410.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

The unidentified Full Cavalier seen in posts #16 and 131 this thread is now identified - A. A. Brykov of the 31st Siberian Rifle Regiment. Here is the best image of him yet.

Regards,

slava1stclass

PaulR, on 11 July 2013 - 12:37, said:

I see. That does make sense. Didn't Naval members also receive the Bravery Medal and Combat Merit Medals?

Chief Warrant,

Here is another nice example of the Bravery Medal as awarded to naval personnel - Black Sea Fleet sailors on parade in Odessa, November 7th, 1945. It's not often that you come across a naval double BM winner.

Regards,

slava1stclass

In that case I misunderstood your post, please forgive my oversight...

Auke,

There is absolutely no need to apologize my friend. My attempt to concisely outline the circumstances behind his eventual OAN award may have been a bit too concise!

Regards,

slava1stclass

Actually, the ORB is higher than the OAN

Auke,

Quite so. Evidently you misunderstood my entry.

His original award recommendation was for the Order of Lenin. As that recommendation went up his chain of command, someone higher in his chain of command recommended a downgrade to an Order of the Red Banner. When all was said and done, however, his original OL award recommendation was downgraded a final time to the Order of Aleksandr Nevskiy - the decoration he received.

Regards,

slava1stclass

It's interesting to see how decorations to foreigners were handled back then - a DSM to a junior lieutenant. I say this only because the DSM ranks as the third highest award among American military decorations. A DSM award to an American officer of similar rank would be unheard of.

Part of the reason the American military's LM was created with four degrees (for foreigners only) was to allow it to be awarded to a wider range of ranks.

Regards,

slava1stclass

This actually only appears to have been the case with the USSR.

Going by Apgar's compilation of DSM awards from 1942 to 1969, the lowest-ranking British recipient was Brigadier Vivian Dykes, Chief of the Secretariat of the Combined Chiefs of Staff, and then-Commodore Thomas H. Troubridge, RN, commander of Naval Task Force Centre in the North Africa landings. The only Canadian was then-Lt. Gen. Harry Crerar; the only Chinese Gen. Chiang Kai-Shek, the only Frenchmen General d'Armee Alphonse Juin and General Jean de Lattre de Tassigny (both later Marshals of France).

What is odd is not that the DSM was awarded to junior personnel, but that it was only awarded to junior personnel: 2 colonels, 2 lieutenant colonels, 3 majors, 4 captains, 5 lieutenants, 3 senior sergeants and 1 sergeant. That seems to reflect a conscious decision to apply different award criteria and to distribute the awards among the grades.

Dave,

I agree that it is indeed very odd the U.S. Army awarded Soviet personnel in the rank of lieutenant colonel and lower a DSM. Back in those days, however, the Army didn't have the plethora of lesser ranking awards it now has e.g., Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal etc. This may be the real explanation. Someone then likely realized the LM (established in 1942) was a much better fit and later the Bronze Star Medal even more so (once authorized in 1944). This possibly explains the very low number of DSMs (20) awarded to Soviets.

Regards,

slava1stclass

More importantly, the distribution of awards and the fact that they came in the same general order seems to indicate some sort of decision to allocate a group of awards to the Soviets, rather than apply the criteria we would to our own awards. Further evidence of this is that GO3 of 1944 not only awarded an even 20 DSMs to Soviets, but exactly 20 DSCs too. So likely someone in the War Department suggested recognizing our Soviet allies, and someone chose 20 of each as the number to be awarded.

My guess is we left it to the Soviets to suggest recipients. For the Soviets, the distinction was less between bravery and meritorious service than it was that the DSC was higher than the DSM. Thus the breakdown for DSMs noted above and the breakdown for DSCs here: 4 lieutenant generals, 8 major generals, 2 colonels, 3 lieutenant colonels, 1 major, 1 junior lieutenant and 1 senior sergeant.

By contrast, if you look at the other 33 awards of the DSC, which came though the Military Mission to Moscow, you see a grade distribution more typical to US Army awards of the DSC: 4 colonels, 1 lieutenant colonel, 3 majors, 2 captains, 4 lieutenants, 2 sergeants major, 3 senior sergeants, 6 sergeants, 1 junior sergeant, 2 corporals and 5 privates. Also, the citations I've seen for this latter group do read like typical DSC valor citations.

I think Dave has a good point... It may well have been left up to the Soviets to determine who received the awards. Giving out high awards to enlisted personnel was a very "communist" anti-rank thought (like they actually followed it, but politically it sounded good!) I know that for numerous foreign awards to Americans, the nation giving the award offered the specific award to a certain unit, and the unit was then allowed to determine who the award went to. Thus, you had situations like that which involved a good friend of mine, who had been recommended for a Medal of Honor, but was downgraded to the DSC. Because of this, his unit put him in for a foreign award from every nation that offered it to the Division, and thus he ended up with the British DSO, Soviet Nevsky, among others.

Just a thought!

Dave

QUOTE(Dave Danner @ May 17 2006, 22:27 ) ←81036

For the Soviets, the distinction was less between bravery and meritorious service than it was that the DSC was higher than the DSM.

Dave,

I ran the numbers.

Three of the 20 Red Army personnel who received the DSM were also HSUs (including one triple HSU) - a 15% rate.

17 of the 53 Red Army personnel who received the DSC were also HSUs (including two Double HSUs) - a 32% rate.

At some point therefore, the distinction for valor did come into play - likely more at our, rather than the Soviets', choosing.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

Easier access to the Russian Ministry of Defense archives now provides for greater clarity on the DSM topic.

Of the 45 total U.S. Army DSMs awarded to foreigners in WW II, 20 (44.4%) went to Red Army personnel. My earlier statement, "This possibly explains the very low number of DSMs (20) awarded to Soviets" is in fact a gross misstatement. Red Army personnel received the lion's share of U.S. Army DSMs awarded to foreigners.

As fellow forum members Dave Danner and NavyFCO note, it is extremely likely the Soviets were given the latitude to designate their U.S. Army DSM recipients.

In reviewing the Russian MoD archive holdings, 18 of the 20 Red Army DSM recipients also received Soviet orders and medals. What follows below are the recipients' orders and medals as awarded prior to receipt of their DSM. This offers us a sense of the possible selection criteria the Soviets employed in choosing their DSM recipients. Other than one individual whose sole award was the lower-ranking Combat Services Medal/Medal for Combat Merit (CSM), the remaining recipients' awards are more compatible with the DSM's position in U.S. Army award hierarchy.

It was also interesting to observe that 11 of the 18 Red Army DSM recipients' subsequent Soviet award recommendations referenced their earlier American DSM award. In these award recommendations, the DSM was most commonly referred to as the American medal "For Combat Services" or "Excellent Service."

Listed in no particular order, the Soviet orders and medals (as earned prior to their DSM award) for 18 of the 20 Red Army DSM recipients:

1) ORB, OPWII, ORS

2) OAN (downgrade from original OL recommendation)

3) OL, ORBx2, OPWI

4) ORS

5) HSU (with accompanying OL)

6) OL (downgrade from original HSU recommendation)

7) ORB

8) HSU (with accompanying OL), second OL, ORB

9) CSM

10) ORB, ORS

11) ORB

12) ORBx2, OPWI

13) ORB, ORS (downgrade from original ORB recommendation)

14) ORB, OAN (downgrade from original OL recommendation), ORS

15) OL, ORS, BM (upgrade from original CSM recommendation)

16) OAN (downgrade from original OL recommendation; subsequently recommended for a further downgrade to ORB), ORS

17) ORB, OPWI, ORS

18) ORB

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

LM recipient Major I. S. Kotoff (post #261 this thread) was an ORB x 2 and Order of Aleksandr Nevskiy winner. His second ORB was a downgrade from the original Hero of the Soviet Union recommendartion.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Two days later, on May 14th, 1945, Lt Gen Zakhvatayev reciprocated at his HQs located 30-40 miles to the southeast. It was on that day that MSU Tolbukhin (Commander, 3rd Ukrainian Front) awarded GEN Patton his Order of Kutuzov First Class.

Gents,

In his book, "Patton: A Genius for War", Harper Collins Publishers, 1995, author Carlo D'Este offered the following on pg. 738 concerning the events of May 14th, 1945 at Lt Gen Zakhvatayev's HQs, "As he (Patton) had predicted, a number of ceremonies were held by the two armies, most of them rituals of one-upmanship. At one event hosted by the Russians in occupied Austria, Patton and his staff were entertained by a ballet troupe from Moscow and dined on stuffed pig, caviar, and seemingly endless rations of vodka. The Russians decorated an American female reporter as a symbol of American womanhood. Not to be outdone. Patton improvised a decoration on the spot for the prima ballerina, which was efficiently produced by a member of his staff."

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

Guards Maj Gen D. T. Shepilov was among the 12 other 4th Guards Army officers GEN Patton decorated in addition to Lt Gen Zakhvatayev on May 12th, 1945 in Linz. Shepilov served as 4th Guards Army's political commissar/member of the military council. He would later serve as the Soviet Union's Minister of Foreign Affairs from 1956-57 under Khrushchev. Khrushchev removed him from that post after learning of Shepilov's role in the effort to oust Khrushchev during the Anti-Party Group affair.

In the below image, Patton is seen pinning the LM (either Degree of Legionnaire or Officer) to Shepilov's uniform.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

Not to be outdone (although he was likely very loathe to have done so judging from his expression), GEN George S. Patton, Jr., is seen with an unidentified Soviet general officer after having decorated him with the Legion of Merit in the degree of Commander and presenting him with a 3rd U.S. Army flag.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

The Russian general officer seen in post #40 this thread whom GEN Patton decorated with the LM (Degree of Commander) was Guards Lt Gen N. D. Zakhvatayev. Zakhvatayev commanded 4th Guards Army.

The presentation ceremony occurred on May 12th, 1945 at the airport/airfield in Linz, Austria. Soldiers from the U.S. Army's 65th Infantry Division provided the honor guard. GEN Patton presented Zakhvatayev's award as well as lower degree LMs to 12 other Red Army personnel. There is also a report he awarded some Bronze Star Medals to Red Army personnel that day.

Two days later, on May 14th, 1945, Lt Gen Zakhvatayev reciprocated at his HQs located 30-40 miles to the southeast. It was on that day that MSU Tolbukhin (Commander, 3rd Ukrainian Front) awarded GEN Patton his Order of Kutuzov First Class.

In the attached image, Lt Gen Zakhvatayev inspects one of the 65th ID's honor guard soldiers prior to receiving his Legion of Merit..

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gents,

Some insight into how the U.S. Army award quota system for Red Army personnel operated in at least one U.S. Army combat organization.

The following excerpt is from the book, "Last Shots for Patton's Third Army" by Robert Paul Fuller, New England Transportation Research, 2003 - pp. 186-187:

"As of 1500 hours, May 6th, V Corps issued a "Letter of Instructions" to its five divisions. (Among other things) It stated that: "The American regimental commander would obtain name, rank and serial number, as well as organization with duties of 12 persons within the Russian division to receive United States Army medals. Russian officer recipients would receive the Legion of Merit (Degree of Legionnaire). Six Russian enlisted men would get the Bronze Star Medal, at the divisional level. In addition, if possible, the American regimental commander would get the same information for six Russian officers and equal number of enlisted men on the corps level. One Russian officer would be awarded the Legion of Merit (Degree of Commander), another Legion of Merit (Degree of Officer) and four Legion of Merit (Degree of Legionnaire). Six Soviet enlisted men would each receive the Bronze Star Medal."

Regards,

slava1stclass

NavyFCO,

Here are two wartime photos of TSgt Bieder from his hometown newspaper. The first was used in an article announcing his first Silver Star award (June, 1944). The second was used in an article announcing his first Bronze Star Medal with "V" device awarded for action in Belgium in September, 1944.

Returning to the possibility Bieder may be depicted in post #1 above, while Soviet field award presentations to U.S. soldiers may have involved mixed U.S. units, I think it more likely they were done with homogenous units. That said, the OGIII-decorated U.S. soldier furthest to the right appears to be wearing just a CIB - with a possible single service ribbon below it. At that point in time Bieder would have had two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star with "V", possibly an AGCM and a service ribbon to his credit.

Regards,

slava1stclass