slava1stclass

Glory-Cavalier + Motherland 3cl

Dear Dave,

during the GPW our comrade was a NCO - that's clear. Show us one case, where a comrade, who started as a sub-lieutenant at the Red Army Airforce promoted to a full Cavalier .

Christian

Perhaps slava1stclass could enlighten us to the few cases? (They'd be good in a book, I think...)

Dave

To all:

http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=477 - one example of several such instances. Facts always trump speculation, conjecture and, in select cases, ignorance.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

The ranking in post # 1 above remains valid as of 22 January 2007.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

I have positively identified the second Full Cavalier in Post # 1 above. I will now work to i.d. these new men (Posts # 7 and 11).

Regards,

slava1stclass

Dear Sir,

I stand by what I posted, when you post such as "The US-Airforce destroyed a lot of our country and killed thousends of civilian people." I would like to see you as the original poster of the thread provide some concrete figures to back up your claim, you could have posted the words "many" or "hundreds" or even "hundreds of thousands".

As its you making the claim the responsibility lies with you to back it up, and not merely pass it off with a"BTW: You will find a lot of material and a lot of open sources (also NATO & US!) in the internet." I have more to do than search for info to back up your claims.

Post with such claims are highly irresponsible and eventualy lead to such heated exchanges as we have witnessed here, and the type of exchange which are all to common on some of the lesser controled forums on the net.

yours,

Kevin A. Ryan (Kev in Deva)

To all:

Kevin is spot on. One thing we know with certainty, however, is that historians can put a figure on the number of unarmed Bosnian Muslim boys and men massacred by the Bosnian Serbs at Srebrenica.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Thierry - No problem. I used to make a special trip to the Economat des Armees in Berlin to pick up a copy of Militaria each month. I couldn't read French, but the photos were so good. There was a double issue (No 22/23) from June-Aug 1987 that has a huge number of color photos of airborne uniforms, equipment, patches, badges, etc... Kevin

Kevin,

You were getting your copy of Militaria and I was purchasing live trout, baguette, cheese and red wine. By the way, the frog legs and baked Alaska at their le Pavillon du Lac Officers' Club were to die for. Those were the days!

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

As the old Serbian proverb goes: "Лепа реч и гвоздена врата отвара." I sincerely wish Herr Zulus good luck in his efforts to secure documentation that will bring definitive closure to this case. Even if the remaining research should come back negative, we can rest assured this group of orders will forever remain in the hands of a devoted collector.

Regards,

slava1stclass

I'm thinking of this group as if it was something that I was going to sell....and I've always had to PROVE that something was legit, particularly when it was "big money", which this group is considered.

If I were to sell this group for it's current value (debateable between $8K-$12K) I think I would have a really tough time selling it. Why? Because the "official" documents say that the Glory 1st isn't the right one. It's nice to have other collectors on the forum say that the book is right, but when someone is going to put that kind of money on the line, they want to KNOW beyond a legal "shadow of a doubt" that it's right. At this point, I don't think we can say that we all fully KNOW that it's right. Sure, it LOOKS right, but what we need is documented proof that the Glory 1st that's with the group is the right one. If we can get documentation from the archives that he was actually awarded this Glory 1st and that it was a bona-fide administrative error, then we can put this entire debate to rest.

Dave

To all:

Dave captures my sentiments exactly - sentiments which I've expressed in some of the earliest posts in this thread.

- Do the three Orders of Glory alleged to have been awarded to G. appear legit - yes.

- Does G's Full Cavalier booklet appear legit (the Order of Glory 1st Class s/n number discrepancy aside) - yes.

- Would I personally want to include this set in my own Full Cavalier collection knowing what we know (or better yet, don't know) - no.

Don't take me wrong, I certainly wish Herr Zulus good luck in his search for indisputable hard evidence to clarify/justify this exceptional case. Absent such proof, however, a heavy cloud of suspicion/doubt will always hang over this set for the reasons Dave has so clearly articulated.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Anyway, back on topic...

Is there any chance of researching Glory 2nd 3646? I think it would be worth the $40 cost to get the award card just to verify WHO it belonged to and take out (or reenforce) the thought that the administrative error might have been made.

Dave

Dave,

Your point is very well taken. While we all remain hopeful this will serve to explain/clarify the glaring records/serial number disconnect, unfortunately there is only so much wishful theorizing one can do in an attempt to otherwise legitimize it.

Regards,

slava1stclass

far too many questions ..., no right-minded collector ..., etc., etc.

Herr Gattringer of Austria never existed - you had been corresponding with me .

Herr Zulus,

Unless you've assumed another person's identity, Fred has been a member of the "other" Soviet awards forum for quite some time.

Here's his homepage as listed on the other forum:

http://www.mobilkomaustria.com/CDA/framese...html-en,00.html

He's in your own backyard.

Regards,

slava1stclass

So the solution would be to find Gnitienlo's award cards (both if possible).

Mondvor,

Concur. I suggested this approach very early on in this thread. Herr Zulus has apparently ordered further research to help bring this rather unusual case to closure - hopefully for the better.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Chrisitan, thanks for sharing this group with us. I think this is an excellent, problem-free set. I didn't find any suspicious details. Just can say that it is a great addition to any collection, my congratulations!

To all:

Other than the outstanding discrepancy regarding the serial number for his Order of Glory 1st Class, I would tend to agree. All the remaining features of this Full Cavalier set appear true. In reviewing G's Special Awards Record Card, it is clear the late award of his Glory 1st was due to an earlier, erroneous double award of the Order of Glory 2nd Class.

This error wasn't corrected until 29 December 1980 when the order for his Glory 1st was issued in Moscow. Just a little less than two months later - on 20 February 1981 - he was issued his Full Cavalier awards booklet (and presumably his Order of Glory 1st Class) when summoned to his local military commissariat in Kharkov.

So the question then becomes one of why the serial number for the Order of Glory 1st class in his possession (and annotated in his Full Cavalier booklet) i.e., s/n 1965 differs from that recorded on his Special Awards Record Card, i.e. s/n 3646.

As the majority of the critical elements of a Full Cavalier Booklet were filled out/completed in Moscow (only the recipient's personal photograph, official military commissariat stamp and date the booklet was issued were added/penned in at the local level) the error (if in fact true) occurred in Moscow. This then begs the question of how this could have occurred given his Special Awards Record Card clearly indicates his Glory 1st should have serial number 3646.

Are we to assume the official government calligrapher in Moscow designated to fill out Full Cavalier Booklets somehow got it wrong? Possible, though unlikely. He/she had to be working off of some sort of official documentation when filling in G's Full Cavalier Booklet.

It is possible G's Uchyotnaya Kartochka will shed more light on this. If this, too, lists his Glory 1st s/n as 3646, "We've got a problem Houston."

Hope this helps.

P.S. As for Full Cavalier Booklet serial numbers being listed on the Special Awards Record Card, I'll need to do some checking and will let you know.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

Considering that he wasn't especially tall and in not particularly good health, maybe they decided to make an exception and cut this guy some slack.

Is this awarding in concert with the established regs for bestowing the Order of Glory? Absolutely not. Is this a classic example of the "watering down" that often occurs in a given Army's awards system at certain points in time? Absolutely.

Nice example. Thank you.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gentlemen,

Let me add my 5 kopeks. I think this group should be checked both with PMD and through the archival research. Paul will provide you the "Cavalier's card", while archival research will most likely yield the "Uchetnaya kartochka". Once those two documents are available any mistakes, inconsistances and etc. will most likely be uncovered and clarified (an exchange of medals always leaves paper trail). And $100 paid for those two documents is more than fair price to confirm (or NOT confirm) the originality of the $14K+ group.

To all:

The Full Cavalier Special Awards Card may also be obtained through an archival research request. The advantage of using PMD's service in this instance rests squarely in its much quicker turn around time. If one is willing to wait, however, all the applicable research documents may be obtained through the archives.

It appears Herr Zulus has opted for the archives route. Hopefully he has requested the full range of research documentation. As stated in one of my earlier posts in this thread, information contained in the archives should serve to bring closure to this case.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Can you build pam Andersons Rack? It might be more fun ;-)

Chris,

With or without "V" device?

Regards,

slava1stclass

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic with the little "It's always good to check with an attorney as they are able to differentiate clearly for all of us the difference between "moral" and "legal"...." remark, but it sounds like you are.

How about this for a little "bid rigging" exercise? You and me and Ricky and Wild Card and Paul and Claudio and whoever wants to bid on some things from Thies all agree to form a bidding enterprise. We call it, for want of a better word, "Bob". We each contribute money to Bob and decide among ourselves what Bob is going to bid on, and how to allocate what Bob wins among the members of Bob. Maybe we don't have enough money among ourselves to ensure Bob is fully capitalized, so we sell shares in Bob. Bob isn't a conspiracy. Bob is a company. And Bob competes with any other Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to bid in Thies' auctions as well.

There nothing illegal about this, and what exactly is immoral about it?

To all:

From one Jesuit-educated person to another, the logic of the argument is pure. They sure tained us well.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Material from the Russian archives

Gentlemen,

does anyone have access to the Russian archives to get some insight into Sergeant Gnitienko's Awards Record Card?

Many thanks in advance .

Best regards

Christian Zulus

Sehr geehrter Herr Zulus,

For a cost of $50.00, Mr. Paul McDaniel offers a service that will fax you a copy of Gnitienko's Full Cavalier Special Award Record Card. Should you so elect, you would most certainly be guaranteed speedy resolution of this case.

Check out: http://www.historicalresearch.com/cavalier.html

We look forward to your report on your findings.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Yes, and thanks. Still interested as to what your source is for this number?

Ed,

Thank you for asking. My sourcing is based on material/documentation from the archives at Podolsk - the purest form of primary research.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

Now available at a well-known NYC-area dealer. This would be a textbook example of a Category 1 Full Cavalier set were it not for the fact the Order of Glory 3rd Class is a substitute for the original and the Cavalier Booklet lacks a date for when it was presented to the winner. The S/N for the Glory 1st is #11. What is even more uncommon (as noted in post # 1 above) is that the grouping also includes his Ordenskaya Knizhka.

Asking Price: $13,500.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Thanks, S1C, I can work only from available sources. In any case, my point stands.

Ed,

No problem. We're here to help one another.

Regards,

slava1stclass

According to The Bible, we are looking at:

Glory 1 - ~ 3743 awarded

Labor Glory 1 - ~714 awarded

Enough said?

The numbers may not be gospel, but they are a guide.

To all:

Ed is a somewhat off. The actual number of Orders of Glory 1st Class awarded is in the 2,500-2,600 range. Whereas Order of Glory 1st Class with serial number 3743 may have been the highest recorded serial number for an awarded Order of Glory 1st Class, the actual number of Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory is in the 2,500 to 2,600 range.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Cavalier.... lets not go there! Glory 1 is less common with circa 4000 awarded. hence the price tag on that is different.

Jim

To all:

More accurately it is in the 2,500-2,600 range.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

This group has been circulating for a few months now. It's interesting to note the huge jump in price since having passed through a couple of hands to its present home at a well-known NYC-area dealer. The original sales price was $750.00 (back in early March of this year).

Current asking price: $1,650.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

A very nice shot of Colonel I.I. Shumilin seen wearing the U.S. Army Legion of Merit in the degree of Legionnaire. As this photo was taken during the height of the Cold War in 1961, it's ironic to note that he wears the American decoration as well as a decoration that appears to be from the People's Republic of China (on the very bottom of the same row).

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

Not to be outdone (although he was likely very loathe to have done so judging from his expression), GEN George S. Patton, is seen with an unidentified Soviet general officer after having decorated him with the Legion of Merit in the degree of Commander and presenting him with a 3rd U.S. Army flag.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Photo two.