slava1stclass

To all:

It appears as if LTG William M. Simpson, CG, U.S. IX Army, decorated more Soviet general officers than many of his fellow American G.O.s. Here are two more shots.

The first is a shot of him with HSU Col Gen Dmitri Svyatayev, CG, 33rd Soviet Army whom he decorated with the U.S. Legion of Merit in the degree of Commander (see post #33 above for another picture of the two).

The second shows him awarding the Legion of Merit (in either the degree of Legionnaire or Officer) to Maj Gen Nicholas N. Amasov, Chief of the Political Section, 3rd Soviet Army in Braunschweig, Germany on 28 May 1945.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

A truly amazing bit of research/detective work. Check it out.

Regards,

slava1stclass

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?sectio...p;article=40908

New York Times

October 27, 2006

pg. 8

Officer Says He Found Site Of York's Heroics In 1918

By Craig S. Smith

PARIS, Oct. 23 ? An American military officer based in Germany says that he has located with some certainty the spot on which the World War I hero Sgt. Alvin C. York carried out his famous exploit in the Argonne forest of northeastern France.

On Oct. 8, 1918, Sergeant York, then a corporal, crept behind enemy lines with 16 other soldiers to attack German machine gunners who were holding up an American advance. They came under fire, and Sergeant York was credited with overcoming the superior force by using sharpshooting skills he had honed during turkey shoots and squirrel hunts in the Tennessee woods.

Competing camps of scholars and military historians have long debated the exact site of this legendary stand, which ended with the capture of 132 German soldiers and was immortalized in a 1941 film starring Gary Cooper. Until now, no one had found what seemed to be such striking material proof that the exploit might have taken place as described.

?We nailed it,? said Lt. Col. Douglas Mastriano, an American military intelligence officer working for NATO, who has spent six years researching the Sergeant York story using American and German military archives.

The general area where the fight took place, near the village of Ch?tel-Ch?h?ry, is well known, but vague and conflicting battlefield accounts made it impossible to say exactly where it occurred.

Most people involved in the hunt have agreed, however, that Sergeant York was the only one who emptied a sidearm in the narrow valley that day, and students of the issue have said that finding a concentration of empty Colt .45 cartridges would be the best proof of where he stood.

Over the past year, Colonel Mastriano, his wife, Rebecca, his son Josiah and his friends Kory O?Keefe, Lt. Col. Jeff Parmer and Gary Martin spent nearly 1,000 hours walking the battlefield with metal detectors. On Oct. 14, Colonel Mastriano and Mr. O?Keefe found two .45 caliber rounds, one live and one that had been fired.

They returned the next weekend and found more evidence: 19 empty .45 cartridges scattered over a 10-foot-wide area at the base of a hill, along with German and American rifle rounds. Many of the German rounds had not been fired. They found more .45 slugs 20 yards away near the remains of a German trench together with hundreds of German rifle and machine gun cartridges, many of them live rounds, and bits of gun belts and debris consistent with soldiers surrendering.

The material fits closely with Sergeant York?s account, in which he described firing his rifle toward machine gunners on a hill before pulling out his Colt .45 to pick off seven German soldiers who charged him with fixed bayonets. Colonel Mastriano had the casings examined by a ballistics expert, who confirmed that they all had come from the same gun.

?I honestly never thought that we would recover the .45s and was stunned when we dug them up,? Colonel Mastriano said this week from his home in Heidelberg, Germany. ?The find means that the search for the York spot is over.?

"1. The Title "Hero of the Soviet Union" is the highest degree of excellence and is conferred for personal or collective efforts involving a heroic feat for the Soviet State and Society."

I think this pretty much sums the debate up by acknowledging that it could be awarded to anyone who made a great contribution to the Soviet State or society in general.

Dave

To all:

In following the arguments and counter-arguments proffered in this thread, it appears to come down to one thing, namely the Soviets had a much wider/looser definition of what "heroic" meant within the context of their society. Their definition, however, runs counter to the general sense of what "heroic" means within most West European nations and the United States. So when a famous Russian ice skater is awarded the Hero of Russia for her on-ice feats, we shouldn't be surprised.

On another note, I, too am dismayed at the tone some of the sub-posts in this thread have taken. I'm happy to see the forum leadership has stepped in to address the matter.

Regards,

slava1stclass

An interesting -- if somewhat disturbing -- discuission. I agree with Rick that the prevailing pro-military bias serves to obscure the full dimensions of any system of honors. If sports "heroes" are seen and rewarded as heroes, why can this not be understood? This is especially at issue when the Hero of Socialist Labor is now off the menu in new capitalism Russia?

To all:

The Russian Order of Saint Andrew would seem to be an appropriate "on menu" contemporary award. For those of you with a command of the Russian language, check it out at: http://award.adm.gov.ru/

Note, too, the decree establishing the Hero of Russia states: "1. Звание Героя Российской Федерации присваивается за заслуги перед государством и народом, связанные с совершением геройского подвига."

Translation: "1. The title Hero of the Russian Federation is awarded for services before the government and nation characterized by the accomplishment of heroic achievements."

Whereas former U.S. Olympic silver medalist ice skater Nancy Kerrigan would clearly qualify (after surviving Tonya Harding's goons' vicious assault), the same doesn't hold true for the aforementioned Russian skater.

Regards,

slava1stclass

regarding the "Hero" designation..... if you think the only heros in this world are military you have seriously missed a great deal of your history. Valor comes in many shapes, sizes and colors and not all of it involves weapons........

To all:

Personally, I wholeheartedly agree. To award a Hero of Russia for winning a slew of Winter Olympic medals (see first post in this thread), however, is a major distortion.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Actually, the HSU is the accurate equivelent to the Victoria Cross, Knights Cross, Medal of Honor, etc. Although having the 1st Class Glory is an impressive feat, it simply meant that three valorous feats were recognized and credited - the feat that earned the Glory 1st was no greater nor less than what earned the Glory 3rd.

Although many of the HSU titles were given out for "political" reasons rather than combat valor, I would say that the majority of HSU titles were given for single valourous acts (e.g. look at the numbers for the crossing of the Dnepr, for example.) Thus, the HSU is a better comparison to the other nation's highest valor awards rather than the Glory 1st which was actually a conglomoration of three individual feats and their subsequent recognition.

Dave

To all:

While I do not disagree with Dave's points, one must not overlook the fact that a Full Cavalier of the Order of Glory was accorded the same rights and privileges as a HSU within Soviet society - a HSU and a Full Cavalier of the Order of Glory were equals in this respect.

As Dave noted, the HSU was a "Title" and not a "Decoration." Considering the HSU could be awarded for non-combat acts, its pure combat-related nature is diminished - unlike the Order of Glory. The Victoria Cross and Medal of Honor are decorations (not titles) awarded solely for combat valor - pure and simple. That said, my position reference the relative importance/ranking of Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory remains firm.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Dear Mr. "Slava 1st Class",

what would be the actual price ranges of the different categories nowadays? How do you see the perspective in the price-movements of "Glory-Trios"?

Despite the fact, that a "Glory-Trio" is THE soviet order for personal valour, a russian dealer (located in Europe) told me that summer, that in Russia (the most important market for Soviet awards) the demand is higher for Suvorov's, Ushakov's, etc., than for full documented "Glory-Trios". This russian dealer still trades "Glory-Trios" and had serveral in stock, as he told me.

Taken the prestige, history and the rarity into account, the Glory's are from their market value still underrated, I think.

What is your opinion about the Glory at the market for Soviet awards?

Best regards

Christian Zulus

Lieber Herr Zulus,

As I am not a dealer, it was not my intent to associate current price ranges with the categories of Full Cavalier sets I've established above. Suffice it to say, however, that pricing among the more well-known Western dealers tends to follow this categorization. I anticipate prices to continue to rise across all categories. Why you may ask? The answer lies in the following reasons:

1) Full Cavalier sets' relative rarity. Beyond the fact that there were only some 2600 Full Cavaliers to begin with, one need simply remember the "golden days" of the early to mid '90s. As Soviet orders and medals began to flow freely out of the East, there were countless instances of original, loose/single Slava/Glory 1st Class orders available on the market. Back then, the focus was more on the gold aspect of the 1st Class than it was on retaining the historical integrity of the Full Cavalier set itself. That said, the true number of Full Cavalier sets is even lower. This fact alone will contribute to continuing price inflation for complete Full Cavalier sets.

2) The Full Cavalier booklet was not introduced until early 1976 - some 31 years after the war ended. By that time a good number of Full Cavalier winners had died reducing even further the number of Full Cavalier sets that may come with the Full Cavalier booklet. I (and clearly the dealers) associate more value to a Full Cavalier set that has a Full Cavalier booklet because the booklet is a form of research in and of itself. In the booklet one normally has the winner's photo as well as a brief synopsis of his unit assignment history given the award authority information contained therein.

3) A given nation's highest military order for combat valor always retains the edge in pricing and collectability. One need only think of the British Victoria Cross and the U.S. Medal of Honor. I firmly believe a Full Cavalier of the Order of Glory set ranks in this category.

Bottom Line: My personal recommendation is that if one could own only one (or more) Soviet group of orders it should be an Order of Glory Full Cavalier set.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

Col Gen Dmitri Svyatayev, CG, 33rd Soviet Army gets ready to lay a wet one on LTG William M. Simpson, CG, 9th U.S. Army after Simpson awarded him the Legion of Merit at Simpson's HQ in the vicinity of Braunschweig, Germany on May 28th, 1945.

Now that's the spirit of Allied cooperation!

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

The above ranking remains valid as of 2 October 2006. It has been quite some time since I've seen a Category 1, 2 or 3 Full Cavalier set on the market. A partial Category 4 set (discussed at http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=11402) is the only set I've seen on the market of late.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

First time I've ever witnessed this - a dealer who assesses that PMD's condition ratings were too high! Normally, they argue in the other direction.

Regards,

slava1stclass

"Please note, that we do not agree with high condition ratings, given by Paul McDaniel to both Orders, since both of them do show signs of possible repairs on reverse. We believe that condition ratings should be at least 1 point lower, for both Orders. Early Red Banner also seems to be converted to suspension and some point, and later restored to original. Despite all that, overall condition is above average on all Orders, with superb eye appeal."

To all:

I have long held that if one could own only one grouping of Soviet combat-related orders that grouping should be a Full Cavalier set of the Order of Glory. Such a set truly embodies the up close and personal nature of combat one envisions when studying the campaigns in the East.

As others have already opined in this thread, certain Soviet orders may be higher in precedence - like the Order of Lenin. With the Lenin, however, one runs the risk that it could have been awarded for exceeding the year's quota for tractor production as easily as it could have been awarded for a valorous act. With the Order of Glory, there is no such chance.

As Wild Card previously noted, to each his own.

Regards,

slava1stclass

About three months ago I sold a 1st Class (two digit) and 3rd Class (1st Class in 8 of 10 condition, 3rd class in poor, but real - not cast!) with document for $6500. I figured that's about a "reasonable" price not buying from a dealer but from a collector. I also feel it was reasonable as several collectors snubbed it because they thought it was priced too high, until a dealer bought it - and I felt he got a reasonably good deal on it. I guess pricing is all in "the eye of the beholder." I personally don't think there are too many buyers out there for single Glory 1sts for $7K or above....at least buyers in this country.

Dave

Dave,

I'm happy to hear you were able to move one of your two two-digit Glory 1st sets. I concur with you that the price you sold it at was indeed very, very reasonable.

As for the current asking price for a Glory 1st, I would tend to believe that given its sheer rarity in numbers (when compared to a HSU for example), pricing in the 7K range (especially for a non-duplicate version) does not seem all that far off the mark.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Actually (assumed, i had the money to buy a set), i would prefer such a set whith its individualities instead of a "flawless" Slava-Set with three "textbook" Glories. But i don?t collect for the investment...

Gerd,

Alles klar.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Matthijs,

the high price is only, because the 2nd class is a Type 1 "border reverse" and i guess, thats already 5-6.000 Dollar, add maybe 5000 for the 1st class, group premium and so on... and you get close to 14.000 Dollar.

Gerd

To all:

$15,000.00 is about right for the current asking price for a Full cavalier set - variants aside. Actually the pricing on this set is a bit high as the 3rd Class is in fact a cast copy/substitute and not the recipient's original order.

As for the current market asking price for an individual/single Order of Glory 1st Class, it's more in the range of $7,000.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

Currently available at a well-known NYC-area dealer. Asking price: $14,700. Details follow:

Regards,

slava1stclass

Full Cavalier of Orders of Glory set to a reconnaissance soldier.

Group includes:

1) Order of Glory 1st Class #1743.

2) Order of Glory 2nd Class #21 (!!!), "BORDER" reverse.

3) Cast copy of Order of Glory 2nd Class, worn long time by comrade Pravdenko in place of his lost 3rd Class. One of the photographs shows it distinctively on his tri-glory bar.

4) Order of Patriotic War 2nd Class #762426.

5) Order's Book, listing all his Orders of Glory, together with Order of Patriotic War 2nd Class. There is also a medal "For Bravery" listed, bu ' missing.

6) Medal "For Victory over Germany" with Certificate.

7) Medal "For Victory over Japan".

8) Medal "20 years Anniversary of Victory over Germany".

9) Medal "50 years Anniversary of Soviet Armed Forces".

10) 2 large original photos of comrade Pravdenko P.D..

11) Original Ukrainian newspaper with photo and large article about comrade Pravdenko P.D., called "Reconnaissance Wingman", by Colonel G.Andreev, Rt. (in ukrainian).

12) English translation for the above article.

13) Copy of biography of comrade Pravdenko, from the book "Full Cavaliers of Orders of Glory" (includes photo).

Excellent condition on all items!

Superb set with very rare 2nd Class Order of Glory #21 !!!

$14,700

Can part of the problem be our focus on (= bias toward) "things military"? Linked to this is the general denigration of any civil awards. The HSU was not, and was never intended to be, a uniquely military award. While many of these non-combat HSUs may have been more important to the USSR than the military acts that won it, we tend to treat them with disrespect. True, if you want "all military, all the time", stick to the Order of Glory (or watch the History Channel on TV).

To all:

Ed raises an interesting point. While I agree that many of this (and other) forum's members tend to focus on the military element, it by no means equates to a general denigration of all things civil. The USSR had more than enough orders/medals that were intended for non-military actions/achievements and some (like the Order of Lenin) that could be legitimately bestowed for either. If the civil side is your kick, all the more power to you.

My personal preference, however, is the military side in particular those orders/medals that were solely bestowed for combat-related valor. As a well-known NYC-area dealer recently opined, if there was only one Soviet order/group of orders he could own, it would be a Full Cavalier group.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

I thought I'd seen it all, but this one definitely takes the cake: http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/hero.asp?Hero_id=3070

For those of you who don't read Russian here's the bottom line: Awarded the Hero of Russia for her "leading achievements in sports, courage and heroism displayed at the ХVIII Winter Olympics in 1998." As if her four gold and one silver Olympic medals weren't enough.

Now you know why I focus on the Order of Glory with particular emphasis on its Full Cavaliers. Order of Glory = in your face combat valor - no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11...s.ap/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/13...reut/index.html

Regards,

slava1stclass

Guard the data base!

Alan

Alan,

Unfortunately the sad fact is that for many caught in a potential compromising position the simpler solution will prevail namely, the tried and proven Soviet method of pulling out a file/sharp instrument and removing the serial number.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/10...t.ap/index.html

Regards,

slava1stclass

Rick,

Danke for the merge! Sorry for the misfire.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

One of the well-known NYC-area dealers currently has a cased, documented and PMD-certified Tractor Lenin available. Serial number 74. Asking price: $77,000.00.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

Sold for $5,250.00

Regards,

slava1stclass

Answered in another forum, but I'll post it here too..

Great pic Dave

As Chip said Terek-Dagestan Fortress Artiellery..

and the badge

Wonderful!

George

To all:

As for the Terek-Dagestan connection, if you look closely at the shoulder board you will notice a lowercase cyrillic "g" after the uppercase cyrillic "D" as Dave noted in his original post. Although the "g" doesn't appear in the above graphic, this would appear to be the unit.

Regards,

slava1stclass

To all:

Note, too, that this is not a complete original Full Cavalier set. A cast copy of his Glory II has been substituted for the missing original Glory III.

Regards,

slava1stclass