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    slava1stclass

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    Posts posted by slava1stclass

    1. On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 13:00, USSR said:

      Last January he sold a single undocumented OG1 for $7750 so $10k for this set will be easy to accomplish.

       

      On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 11:47, slava1stclass said:

      Gents,

        While USSR's OGI's authenticity is not in doubt, the fact it was altered will clearly affect its long-term value.  In my personal view, it would have been better if the original serial number had not been removed - even if it was a non-issued piece.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

       

      On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 10:07, Christian Zulus said:

      Gentlemen,

      I guess, Matt's OGI will get a highest bid somewhere in the range between USD 5,000.- and USD 7,000.-.

      Kind regards

      Christian

      Gents,

        USSR's OGI serial number "967" sold for $5,000.00 on the well-known auction site. 

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    2. On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 18:17, USSR said:

      Here it is

      IMG_4273.JPG

      And a scan of the obverse 

      IMG_4274.JPG

      Gents,

        Serial number "967" is now available for sale on the well-known auction site.  Opening bid was .99 U.S. cents.  Current bid stands at $20.50.

        Christian's and my own comments used earlier in this thread are cited in the order's description:

      "The first theory is that the initial order was stolen from or lost by Dmitry Feodorovich Gantsev, he went with his documents to the mint and they gave him - or sold him - this very new one. The stamping machine might have been out of order so the mint could notstamp the number and the cyrillic "D" for "duplicat".

      The second theory is that the order is a non-issued/unawarded example whose original serial number was four digits.  That serial number was removed and serial number "967" was added."

        Good luck to USSR! 

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    3. Gents,

        This Legion of Merit paperwork as well as the officer's three Orders of the Red Banner and Legion of Merit decoration are currently available on the well-known auction site.  BIN price:  $14,999.99.

        Guards Colonel Sergey N. Demennikov was the Deputy Commander, 120th Guards Rifle Division.  Note the two incorrect spellings of his surname on the award paperwork. 

        He was awarded eight Soviet military orders for his wartime service:  three Orders of the Red Banner, the Order of Suvorov Third Class, the Order of Aleksandr Nevskiy, the Order of the Patriotic War First Class and two Orders of the Red Star.   

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

      Demennikov, Sergey N..jpg

      Demennikov, Sergey N. 2.jpg

      Demennikov, Sergey N. 3.jpg

    4. Gents,

        My take:

        - The obverse of "967" clearly bears the hallmarks of an original, mint-produced OGI.

        - Gantsev's OGI was approved on April 10, 1945.  He died in 1968. 

        - I have never encountered a mint-issued official duplicate OGI whose serial number was hand engraved.  All serial numbers were stamped.  The stamped Cyrillic letter "D" (for duplicate) was found above the serial number.

        - I believe USSR's OGI to be a non-issued/unawarded example whose original serial number was four digits.  That serial number was removed and serial number "967" was added.  It is anyone's guess as to why "967" was chosen.  For illustrative purposes, the attachment shows the reverse side of two sequentially numbered non-issued OGIs.  As Christian noted, their very pronounced stippling clearly matches that of USSR's OGI.

        While USSR's OGI's authenticity is not in doubt, the fact it was altered will clearly affect its long-term value.  In my personal view, it would have been better if the original serial number had not been removed - even if it was a non-issued piece.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass 

      Twins.jpg

    5. Gents,

        Just listed on the well-known NYC-area dealer's site.  Price:  $11,750.00. 

        He was a SU-85 self-propelled gun mechanic-driver.  His OGI citation and a rare wartime photograph of him and his fellow regimental Full Cavalier winner are included in my book.  His  buddy went MIA before Moscow approved his OGI and therefore his friend's OGI was a posthumous award.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass 

      1049.jpg

      1049 a.jpg

    6. 10 hours ago, Christian Zulus said:

      Dear Slava1stclass,

      many thanks for your reply!

      Is there a 3rd variant of the Special Award Booklets for Full Cavaliers in the time from 1992 on by the Russian Federation?

      Was there a special chapter of the Order of Glory by RF-government from 1992 on, due to the fact, that the Supreme Soviet vanished?

      As I can make out in your statistics in the book, the confering of OGI stopped recently. Is that fact also true for OGII & OGIII?

      Kind regards

      Christian

      Christian,

        For all the questions you're asking, you're going to owe me a nice Apfelstrudel mit Vanillesauce the next time I'm in Vienna!

      1) There are four known variants of the Special Award Booklet for the Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory.  I'm unaware of any version separately produced by the Russian Federation once the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.  I would assume those Orders of Glory First Class awards issued post-1991 used USSR-produced booklets that remained in stock.

      2) Orders of Glory First Class authorized post-1991 were based on orders, not decrees, issued by either the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation or Ukraine. The RF, and I would assume Ukraine, also published separate laws/guidance concerning the rights and privileges granted to Full Cavaliers as well as to HSUs.

      3) As noted in my book, the final Orders of Glory First Class for Great Patriotic War valor (all of which were post-war corrections of wartime administrative errors) were authorized in 1996.  Other than tracking down and presenting OGIIs and OGIIIs to those veterans who were approved for them during the war or in the immediate post-war years, i.e. 1946 and 1947, I'm unaware of any new OGII or OGIII award approvals for GPW service as was the case with OGIs.  Here is a story (in Russian) of a vet who only received his OGIII a little over one month ago - in December 2016 - 72 years after he was first approved for it:  http://www.slavcentr.kz/index.php/blogs-menu/blogs/a/8703-Orden-Slavyi-nashel-svoego-geroya.html  

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    7. 36 minutes ago, Christian Zulus said:

      Dear Slava1stclass,

      Another question: Have you any numbers, how many survivors of Full Cavaliers got these special booklet, issued in 1976 or later in the 1980s, which should be part of a category 1 set? Somewhere I read, that this number is about 700 Full Cavaliers?

      Kind regards

      Christian

      Christian,

        I can confirm that slightly over 1,700 of the Special Award Booklets for Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory were issued - either to the Full Cavaliers or to their next of kin.  There are likely more, however, the 1,700 figure represents those for which I have the actual  booklet serial number.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    8. 3 minutes ago, Christian Zulus said:

      Dear Slava1stclass,

      many thanks for your prompt and clear answer!

      You write in your book, that besides Great Patriotic War and Manchurian Operation, a number of OG3s had been confered for Hungary 1956 and River Amur 1960s. It seems, that the OG was only for "official" wars awarded - not for Korea, Vietnam or Egypt? I guess, for CSSR 1968, there had been to less real fighting for confering OG3s?

      Kind regards

      Christian

      Christian,

        You're welcome.  There is nothing I came across in my research to confirm OGIIIs were awarded for any major post-war Soviet operation/engagement other than those referenced in my book.  While I am aware of confirmed Soviet military decorations awarded for action in the Korean War, there are no confirmed OGIII awards from that conflict of which I'm aware.  There are of course confirmed awards of decorations like the HSU and the Order of the Red Star connected with Soviet operations in Afghanistan.  

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    9. 59 minutes ago, Christian Zulus said:

      You write, that these 9 new Full Cavaliers never received their decree by the Supreme Soviet afterwards. What was their legal status? Had they been some kind of "illegal" Full Cavaliers? At least you did not include them to the 2,656. So we have only 4 new Full Cavaliers linked to the "Manchurian Operation" and not 13. Seen from an ethical viewpoint, they 9 should be included.

      Kind regards

      Christian

      Christian,

        Thank you for your question.  Of the nine Full Cavaliers approved for the Order of Glory First Class via MSU Vasilevskiy's order of September 23, 1945, only two were for action against the Japanese.  The remaining seven were awards he approved based on those soldiers' combat action against the Germans.  All nine are included in the total Full Cavalier count of 2,656.  All nine are recognized as Full Cavaliers - that is not in question.  It's just that for some reason they were never subsequently included in an official PSS decree. 

        The other two Full Cavaliers whose OGIs were awarded for action against the Japanese were among the 437 post-war corrections.  Their initial Orders of Glory for action against the Japanese were erroneous repeat awards of an Order of Glory class they had already received.  The Presidium of the Supreme Soviet would later amend/upgrade them to the Order of Glory First Class in 1955 and 1958.  BLUF:  Only four Full Cavaliers earned their Order of Glory First Class/their Full Cavalier status fighting the Japanese.   

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    10. Christian,

        Thank you sincerely for your kind words.  I hope you enjoy the book.  As you will note when you read further chapters, there are many very interesting and little-known facts and statistics associated with the 2,656 Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory.  They are now brought to light for the very first time.  The 200 Order of Glory First Class award recommendations included in the book are clearly among the very best of the 1,800 to 1,900 I reviewed during its drafting.   

        At the moment, I plan to use the eBook format although I may consider a bound version (possibly paperback) in the future. 

        Have a nice weekend.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    11. 44 minutes ago, cimbineus said:

      Here are the pictures of the booklet.

      csapasmero igazolvany borito.jpg

      csapasmero igazolvany nev 1000.jpg

      cimbineus,

        Ferdinand's suspicions were correct.  While there was indeed an individual by that name, his only award was the Order of the Red Star approved via 1st Belorussian Front order No. 684/N dated June 30, 1945.  Born in 1902, he was a captain assigned to hospital for lightly wounded and sick soldiers with duties as a "propagandist."

        One can thus assume the other decorations were added to the booklet in an attempt to peddle it for a greater profit.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    12. 17 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

      Can we see the page with the name of the recipient? I must say I'm not wild about the entries.

      Gents,

        As Ferdinand notes, that piece of information is critical.

        That said, and in all likelihood, the recipient was assigned to the 1232nd Rifle Regiment, 370th Rifle Division, 69th Army at the time he was awarded his OGII in late March/early April 1945.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    13. On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 15:51, slava1stclass said:

      Gents,

        Currently available on the well-known auction site for a buy-it-now price of $3,500.00. 

        This an interesting offering as the Full Cavalier in question initially served in an airborne unit and later transitioned to duties as an aerial gunner/radio operator in an IL-2 Shturmovik ground attack aircraft.  His OGIII recommendation included credit for shooting down a German aircraft.  His IL-2 pilot would go on to earn the HSU title.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

      OKf.jpg

      OK.jpg

      OKa.jpg

      OKb.jpg

      OKc.jpg

      OKd.jpg

      OKe.jpg

      Gents,

        The BIN price was lowered to $1,599.00 earlier today.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    14. On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 07:54, slava1stclass said:

      Gents,

        A hybrid Category I Full Cavalier set (the Full Cavalier booklet has a military commissariat stamp on the cavalier's photo, but lacks the handwritten date of issue) is being offered at the XLI New York Sale Auction on January 12, 2017.  The opening bid is $10,000.00. 

        It, as well as other Soviet-related items up for auction, may be found at this link:  http://www.dmitrymarkov.com/dm/pics/nysale41-medals.pdf

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

       

      5 minutes ago, Bill Garvy said:

      Here is a full Order of Glory Cavalier set at auction, New York Sale, January 17th, 2017, from the current catalogue...

      Bill,

        Thank you.  This is the set I referenced in my December 9, 2016, post above.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    15. Gents,

        A few comments:

      1) "another fact is, that - in relation - many more mortar crews survived the war, than machine gun squads, rifle men or snipers."  Mortarmen clearly operated at the tactical level and were exposed to just as many dangers as their combat arms brethren.  To state a greater number of mortarmen survived the war without furnishing facts to substantiate said claim is spurious at best.  Many Full Cavaliers who were mortarmen were organically assigned to the rifle regiments they supported and not to Mortar or Artillery-Mortar Regiments.  Mortarman serving as forward observers in the infantry's ranks were clearly operating in the FEBA as were the mortarmen themselves.  As a group, riflemen, submachine gunners and snipers produced more Full Cavaliers than mortarmen. 

      2) "Due to the fact, that the OG is NOT a posthumous award..."  The Order of Glory was in fact awarded posthumously either for being killed in the cited action/subsequent combat or succumbing to one's combat wounds before the award was formally approved in Moscow or could be presented to the recipient if already approved.  Sniper Sergeant Major Nina Petrova is but one such posthumous example.  While the decoration itself was not presented, the OGI award approval and Full Cavalier status were conveyed in posthumous cases  

      3) "So, most full cavalier sets resulted from the capture of Berlin."  Untrue.  Full Cavaliers resulting from the assault on Berlin proper and its near approaches amounted to roughly 10% of all Full Cavalier awards. 

      4) "Generally: The quality of the 3 heroic actions in spring/summer 1944 for becoming a full cavalier are rather different..."  Agree.  Christian's Gnitienko Full Cavalier set is far more representative of a typical Full Cavalier set - regardless of at what point during the war it was awarded.  As I've stated previously in this thread, to own any Full Cavalier set places one in a very exclusive club.  Congrats Christian!

      5) "Anyhow, a full cavalier set of the OG has to rank ABOVE a HSU, due to 2 facts: It is an authentic FEBA-award (besides of mortar crews ...) and you have to show (and survive) 3 heroic deeds for becoming a full cavalier!"  Clearly, there are many elements of truth to make this case.  As Christian notes, it was a purely tactical-level combat valor award.  Full Cavaliers were on par with HSUs when it came to status and privileges in Soviet society.  More importantly, there were far, far fewer Full Cavaliers than HSUs.  Taken together, I'd select a Full Cavalier set over a HSU any day.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    16. 56 minutes ago, Christian Zulus said:

      Gentlemen,

      I guess, there had been far too many OGI for mortar crew commanders. If the recipient would have been a machine gun squad leader or a sniper, it might boost the market value. A mortar is an INDIRECT weapon. The 120mm Soviet mortar model 1943 had a minimal range of 460m and a maximal range of 5.700m. You see, a mortar man is much more seperated from the enemy, than a machine gunner, rifle man or a sniper. The history of market prices for full cavalier sets showed, that mortar men had been usually located in the lower half.

      Also the actions for the OGIII & OGII are of importance. The ideal case for a full cavalier set is always, when the recipient got his 3 OG at decisive battles during main operations, i.e.: Crimea - Bagration - Berlin.

      Kind regards

      Christian

      Gents,

        Christian is correct in stating that more Full Cavaliers came from the ranks of mortar crewmen than those who were machine gunners or snipers.  I cannot comment, however, on whether mortar-related Full Cavalier sets have traditionally drawn lower prices.  I would be interested in seeing examples that support the claim.

        Additionally, the overwhelming majority of Full Cavalier sets come nowhere close to having each of their OGs resulting from three distinct bell-ringer battles or operations.  Far from it.  A set that includes at least one of the OGs (especially the OGI) connected to a Sevastopol, Breslau, Koenigsberg, Berlin, Budapest or Vienna action for example, will always command a premium in my view.  

        The role this Full Cavalier's Rifle Regiment and Division played in the final assault on Berlin and capture of the Reichstag - of which he played a part - is by far the most critical element contributing to this set's value and ultimate sale price. 

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    17. 1 hour ago, USSR said:

      Don't you worry, this lot will sell for the price mentioned without a problem. Believe me... ;-) 

      Last January he sold a single undocumented OG1 for $7750 so $10k for this set will be easy to accomplish. 

      Btw, only 5 out of the 30 Soviet awards didn't sell for the estimated price last time so I really don't see your negative stance in this matter. The only substantial decline in prices is that of common Red Banners. But these were ridiculously overpriced 8 years ago.

       

      On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 07:59, slava1stclass said:

      Gents,

         Said prices tend to range from $12,500.00 to $18,000.00 depending on the orders' condition and any accompanying documentation; the point of sale i.e., in the former Soyuz or in the West; and the Full Cavalier's combat pedigree which is a combination of the awardee's military occupational specialty, Guards status and the actual OGI award recommendation write up.  As an example, a knock-you-off-your-feet OGI recommendation that is very fact filled and descriptive - regardless of MOS, Guards status or location of cited action - will always command a premium as will Full Cavalier sets whose OGI is based on a late-war descriptive recommendation for action in Koenigsberg or Berlin. 

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

      Gents,

        As noted in my above post, a variety of factors can influence the ultimate sale price. 

        The lot in question in the upcoming auction is to a Full Cavalier whose OGI recommendation was for action in the heart of Berlin in late April 1945 as a 120mm mortar crew commander.  He was assigned to a 3rd Shock Army Rifle Regiment/Division that played a key role in seizing the Kroll Opera House during the final assault on the Reichstag.  The opera house was located directly across from the Reichstag on the western side of Koenigsplatz.  

        That said, it will be interesting to see how this Full Cavalier set fares.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    18. Gents,

        A hybrid Category I Full Cavalier set (the Full Cavalier booklet has a military commissariat stamp on the cavalier's photo, but lacks the handwritten date of issue) is being offered at the XLI New York Sale Auction on January 12, 2017.  The opening bid is $10,000.00. 

        It, as well as other Soviet-related items up for auction, may be found at this link:  http://www.dmitrymarkov.com/dm/pics/nysale41-medals.pdf

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

    19. On ‎11‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 20:09, slava1stclass said:

      Gents,

        He's lowered the price once again by $500.00.  The current BIN price is set at $1,999.00.  You have to give him credit for recognizing the realties of today's market.  

        Considering these two OGs were to a Full Cavalier who was an Il-2 Shturmovik aerial gunner-radio operator, it's starting to look tempting.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

      Gents,

        A month on and the group is still available.  There have been no subsequent price reductions although the seller will entertain best offers.  None has been made to date.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass  

       

    20. Gents,

        HSU Guards Colonel Vasiliy F. Orlov seen wearing the Legion of Merit in the degree of Officer which he was awarded in 1944.  He commanded 6th Guards Mechanized Corps, 4th Guards Tank Army, 1st Ukrainian Front.  Severely wounded in action on March, 17, 1945, he died the next day.  He was posthumously awarded the HSU title on April 6, 1945.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

      Orlov, V. F..jpg

    21. On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 18:30, slava1stclass said:

      Gents,

        Just six days later, the price has dropped another $500.00.  The current BIN price is set at $2,499.00.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

       

      Gents,

        He's lowered the price once again by $500.00.  The current BIN price is set at $1,999.00.  You have to give him credit for recognizing the realties of today's market.  

        Considering these two OGs were to a Full Cavalier who was an Il-2 Shturmovik aerial gunner-radio operator, it's starting to look tempting.

      Regards,

      slava1stclass

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