John Burchell

As an adjunct to the above information and my ongoing interest in the U-190, members may be interested to know that three years ago I accidentally came across photographic documentation and items in an antique shop in New Brunswick, which subsequently led me to the daughter of a former RCN man who was also there when the U-190 was taken into captivity. He was a Leading Seaman and a member of the Navy's elite Underwater Demolition Team stationed at that time in St. John's, Newfoundland, and was on one of the vessels that escorted the U-190 into Bay Bulls.

Following the war, this man joined the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, going directly into the RCMP Marine Division, where he had an equally interesting career.

This man was my second direct link to this specific history. Nice to be able to share it with an appreciative audience.

Regards,

John

Thanks, Steve. You and Forum members may be interested to know - if you do not already know - that the official photographs taken of the surrender of the U-190 (probably the ones to which you refer above) were all done by a professional photographer - a Newfoundlander named Cyril Marshall. He was given an "exclusive" to photographically cover the event, and was given an escort while doing so. That escort was Lieut. Scott Young, who went on to become a famed sports journalist and author, and was also the father of singer-songwriter Neil Young. They, and other RCN personnel, boarded a Navy vessel and put to sea that day in May, 1945 to intercept the submarine being towed toward Bay Bulls. They subsequently boarded the U-190 some 150 kilometres out at sea. His photos depict the submarine's arrival in Bay Bulls, the crew on the deck of the submarine and proceeding ashore to the wharf. There are also subsequent pictures of the U-190 in St. John's Harbour.

It was my honour and pleasure to have been in direct contact with Mr. Marshall exactly 9 years ago in Februray, 1998. He very kindly provided me with copies of many of his copyrighted pictures on this event. As well, he gave me a photocopy of the letter dated June, 1945 from Lieut. Young, on Department of National Defence stationery, sending him a photostatic copy of the surrender document - the original of which now resides at the Canadian War Museum (shown above).

History is so nice when one can communicate with someone who was actually there.

Regards,

John

Hello "smiler"!

I have added details on the painting, as you requested, in my posting above where the item appears.

Regards,

John

...

Gentlemen:

Here is a triangular-shaped rank flag which I believe to be a Commanding Admiral's flotilla pennant. The iron cross is printed on a wool-like material. There is a more substantial cotton or canvas-like material forming the bunting with attachment rope sewn-in at the hoist-end, where double-layered reinforcement panels are also machine-stitched on both sides.

A cloth label sewn to the bunting indicates the maker as being the: "Bonner Fahnenfabrik Bonn / Rheindorferstr. 224".

The approximate measurements are 44 cm. across the top bunting and 74 cm. along the triangular side. The iron cross measures 32.5cm. from the outside edge (at the bunting end) to the outside bottom of the arm; and the middle cross arm 31.5 cm. side-to-side across. The ends of the arms of the cross measure 8 cm., and the black-and-white borders together measure 1 cm.

The singularly interesting feature of this flag/pennant are the nicknames, followed by signatures and rank levels added to the quadrants, presumably by the officer compliment of a U-Boot or other ship, or perhaps even old comrades from officers' academy or the like, as presented to the senior officer on some special occasion, perhaps retirement. Judging from the superb condition of the flag/pennant, it was never actively used.

I would be most grateful for comments as to whether or not this item is of Third Reich vintage, the names being a most likely clue. Any and all comments are most welcome.

Regards,

John

...

Information from the text panel at the exhibit:

German Prisoners Leaving their U-Boat, Bay Bulls, Newfoundland

Canadian war artist Thomas Charles Wood was present for the arrival of U-190 in Bay Bulls, Newfoundland .

Painted by Thomas Charles Wood in 1945

Beaverbrook Collection of War Art

CWM 1971261-4870

...

...

Yesterday I visited the new Canadian War Museum (CWM) and also attended a seminar there regarding one of their current special exhibits: "Canada Under Attack - The Battle of the St. Lawrence, 1942-44". This exhibit and seminar specifically dealt with the menacing U-Boot activity and patrols that occurred in that area, and their effect on merchant and commercial shipping.

Following are pictures of some U-190 artifacts found at the CWM which I would like to add to this thread and share with forum members: a model of the U-190 (sorry for the glare); painting of the U-190 crew coming ashore following surrender in Newfoundland; barograph and starglobe purportedly from the U-190; the original surrender document signed by the Kommandant; as well as a book and map from the sub.

Regards,

John

You guys are amazing! Thank you so much. I will now see if I can acquire this photo from the owner.

Best regards,

John

Here is the picture of a heavily-armed ship (battleship?) which I believe to be of WW1 vintage. Do not know where the photo was taken. I have tried to identify the flags and the emblem which appears on the prow without success.

Can anyone identify the period and nationality...and if possible - the name, please?

Thanks,

John

I agree with the comments in post #18 above and would add that it should not be "C" in the words "Ges. Gesch." - all of which is further evidence as to the questionable authenticity of the 1944 badge shown in post #15.

Regarding the 1942 badge shown in post #3, I would draw your attention to a well-researched article by Mr. Wilhelm P.B.R. Saris appearing in the Fall 2005 edition of "The Military Advisor" entitled, "The German-Japanese Youth Exchange Badges: A Known and Unknown Oddity". While the badge in question is not pictured or discussed in any detail there, reference is made to youth exchange visits between Japan and Germany and "...the first meeting, known as 'erste japanisch-deutsche Akademikertagung.' " Footnote 10 on page 29 makes the following reference: "Ibid, 70-01-40/1364 which talks about the 2nd 'Deutsch-japanische Akademikertagung.' This and later meetings, as far as is known, were always held in Germany or Austria. All observed enameled badges for the 4th meeting which have the German and Japanese flags included, and marked 'Alois Klammer' are considered 'fakes' ".

Hope this to be helpful.

Regards,

John

Could the "Traditions-Abzeichen" or badge which might have been on this cap (see post #2 above) have been like this pictured below, perhaps?

Understood. That makes good sense and I would have to agree. Thank you, once again.

I do not know how many of these were awarded, but that shown above is one of the earliest and rarest. The "Verdienstorden vom Deutschen Adler" or Meritorious Order of the German Eagle was instituted in May, 1937. A determining feature of the first produced pattern pieces is that, "...the suspension ring is mounted through a loop affixed directly into the V section of the upper arm...." (Ailsby). "The first pattern design of the 1937 series was short-lived" (Angolia) and "...was awarded for only a few months". (Forman). The second type version had a fan-shaped suspension device.

One does not see many of these at all. Hope this information is of interest.

Regards,

John

Gordon, thanks very much for your comments and for posting the obverse picture of an original, period Meybauer indicating the variances, which are now clear to me. I have been anxiously trying to get some knowledgeable and experienced opinion on my badge since I acquired it about one year ago, hoping it to be an original. I am sure that you can understand my trepidation.

This discussion will prove valuable to other forum members and collectors over the course of time, to be sure. In that vein and to settle my concern, I would pose one final question for your consideration and response please, before I consign this one to the realm of fake/reproduction badges.

Since I understand that these badges continued to be made after the Imperial period and early 1920s, on into the 1930s & early 1940s, is there any chance that the subtle differences noted with respect to my badge could possibly be pre-1945 variations?

Merci, Michel. Please have a look at the pictures immediately above in my posting (#18), and these posted here below. Thank you for your opinion and comments. John

Merci, Michel. I appreciate your responding, but I feel that you have my badge mistaken with the one shown by Paul W. above, whereas mine is shown in posting #12. Mine does not have the striations, rather it has a smoothly-finished reverse. Gordon W. mentioned concerns he had with obverse differences. Perhaps you would kindly comment on that, as well, and perhaps show the obverse of your badge. I will post another set of pictures here for your further review, please.

Regards, John

I would agree, Ronny, that the badge is a period one that was re-worked/customised at some point in time. There is indeed solder where the hinge and retaining clasp are located and the badge does not appear to have been gold-plated/gilded.

Thanks very much to you and Don for your comments.

Regards,

John

Sure, here they are, Ronny...best I can do with my digital, so hope they suffice. Cheers, John

No problem with your asking for additional clarification on details, Don. Perhaps I, as much as you, would like this to turn out to be a rare one. I do not have the knowledge of WBs that you do, but would say I believe it to have been stamped-out, as the edges on the inside and around the sword handles are not sharp or jagged.

If you require more details or pictures to help make a determination, just ask and I'll respond as best I and my scanner/digital camera can.

Should both you and I make it to the next militaria show in Etobicoke on March 24th/07, I hope that we can meet in person when I will introduce you to this baby and let you be the judge.

John

Thanks for noting and responding, Rick, as I do value and respect your opinion on such matters. Please consider this further detail which I hope helps to explain the above interpretation.

As I understand it "....There is no exact crossover in the Imperial Rank list or even pre-war lists back to 1910. However, before 1910 these two officers were the only active officers with these names other than a retired medical doctor Thiele who retired before 1900. During the time between 1906 and 1910 Georg Thiele was serving at the Naval Academy at Kiel and Hildebrand was serving with the naval administration in Berlin....[it is felt] that it was during this time that a relationship developed between these two naval officers and the dagger was exchanged as a true gift of friendship...." and that "...the dagger was presented between 1906 and 1910....by Georg Thiele."

Given the facts that there are no first names or dates associated with this dagger one cannot, of course, be 100% certain of these officers being the ones named on the blade, although the dates of birth and entry into naval service are not all that disparate.

Based upon the dagger inscription, here is an outline of the most likely pedigree of this dagger:

Quote

....The presenter of the dagger Georg Thiele was born on May 11, 1880 and entered the service in 1896, most likely as a cabin boy as he was only 16 years old. His last rank of Korvette Kapitane was obtained March 22, 1913. On the first of October 1914 Thiele was named as Chief of the 7th Torpedo Boat Half Flotilla. 17 days later he was killed when his ?S119? struck a mine off of the coast of the Netherlands. The Third Reich destroyer ?George Thiele? was named in his honor. This destroyer was launched in 1935 and was sunk April 13, 1940 at Rombaksfjord.

The wearer of the dagger was Walter Hildebrand. He was born May 1, 1873. He entered the navy on April 1892 and achieved his final wartime rank of Kapitane zur See on May 31 1917. He later was promoted to the rank of Rear Admiral on December 1, 1921. Hildebrand died February 27, 1923. His record was:

November 1914 1st officer ?Preussen?

August 1915 Commander of the ?Thetis?

January 1916 Administrative purser

February 1917 Commander of the ?Nurnberg?

January 1918 Commander of the?Kaiserin?

At Wars End Commanded the ?Hindenburg?....

Unquote

I liked it before purchasing it, and I like it a lot more now.

Regards,

John

The edges in the centre are smooth. Here are a couple of pictures that may help to show this feature.