drclaw

Very interesting Nick! The number of variations make it a challenge to distinguish between real and fake.

If I was presented with that Third Class example in post #37, I'd have initially dismissed it as a reproduction. But now I'm not so sure ...

The Russian made Double Dragons are just beautiful. But you wouldn't expect anything less.

Any theories why a breast star might be marked Fedor Ruckert but not Faberge?

I've used a 20X jewellers magnifying glass and also took some shots with a digital microscope.

I'm guessing "1 A C(or R or L) F E". But it could be the Dark Tongue of Mordor!

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2012/post-11630-0-56061200-1336659012.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2012/post-11630-0-78103800-1336659039.jpg

Yeah, I saw that magnificent Fedor Ruckert breast star - it has come up for sale twice in the last 3 years.

But the last asking price was simply astronomical and it was passed in at auction.

Hey Nick,

Well I upgraded to a jeweller's 10X magnifying glass from my 6X.

After staring at the markings I began to see things - first a koala bear, then Elvis, and maybe the 84 is actually 800 or EEE!!! But the first three letters does appear to be "I" or "1" and then "AR" or "BR". It doesn't appear to be Ф unfortunately ...

Will next try a 200X digital microscope which will be able to scan images which I can post.

Gavin

What a fantastic result!

The restoration work is museum quality and your Lions are now flawless.

Thanks for posting the contact details for Barry. I'll have to rifle through my collection to find things to restore now.

Gents,

Chinese medals are my particular interest so Imperial Russian marks are not something I'm familiar with.

I'd be grateful for any help in identifying a Russian mark on an Imperial Chinese Order of the Double Dragon.

The suspension pin catch has, in unbelievably tiny writing, "I" and what appears to be "AR" or "BR", with the R having a long curvy tail.

Then follows a smudge and then the number "84", which I understand is the Russian silver mark.

The breast star is a Second Type, Second Class, Third Grade Double Dragon, conferred between 1902-1911.

Most of the Second Type Double Dragons were made in China but this one has a number of features that suggests non-Chinese manufacture.

First, the centre stone is a plain red coral. Chinese made insignia usually have an orange centre stone carved with the Chinese longevity symbol.

Second, the Mandarin inscriptions (in old Chinese seal script) on the right hand side look like they were carved by someone from Mars, or at least not familiar with Mandarin.

Any help would be great!

Gavin

Very interesting photos! I think it's time for Hercule Poirot style handle-bar moustaches to make a come-back.

Oh and Hussar jackets ...

Thanks for posting this research Nick. There's very little I can add unfortunately. Although I think we're close to concluding that these markings aren't dates.

It's a shame that not more of these have been sold accompanied by bestowal documents.

It does make it even more mysterious as to what the strange combination of roman and Hindu-Arabic numerals represent.

Hey Nick, a very interesting thread. Thanks for taking the time to post these up as it's something that has intrigued me too.

Warlord era soldiers had similar marks (a strange combination of Roman and Hindu-Arabic numerals) on their uniforms to denote their units.

If we go by the hypothesis that the digital marks are numbers or dates, the D4 mark could mean September ("9") of the First ("I") Year of the Republic, i.e. September 1912.

Alternatively, it could also mean the Ninth Year of the Republic, First Month.

We would need more info on the frequency with which these combinations occur. I have come across 7XII a few times (or we are looking at the same examples) and it would seem odd that so many Striped Tigers just so happened to have been made at that particular date.

Gavin

Hello Demir,

Thanks for your wonderful book which arrived yesterday - just in time for ANZAC Day. I finally have an answer to something that has been perplexing me for awhile - the reason for the difference between the poorer quality painted medals and the richly enameled ones.

I enjoyed it immensely and found the section on the history of the Ottoman Empire and Turkey's experience in WWI particularly interesting. Many English language histories gloss over the fact that Turkey was caught in the middle of two sides. The Western powers had plotted to carve up the admitedly moribund Ottoman Empire. Germany then made her entry into the war inevitable by ordering the Goeben to shell Russia.

The pictures are sharp and crisp, the explanations very comprehensive. Congratulations on the book.

Any thoughts about writing something similar on the Order of Medjidie and Osmanie? I have Erureten and Tarihi's excellent book on Ottoman Medals and Orders. Unfortunately for me, most of the explanations / statutes are in Turkish or Arabic.

Gavin

Congratulations on the acquisitions!

The Wolfers lion would be my personal favourite as the most regal looking depiction of all the makers. Superb craftmanship from one of the finest European houses.

The green enameled rays are in perfect condition too.

There was a 1st Class Civilian and 1st Class Military, excellent condition in their original Garrard & Co cases, that were sold by Herman Historica in their December 2011 auction.

I can't recall the prices but believe they were around the 1500 Euro mark. Earlier sales by some of the London auction houses were also around the 1200-1500 pound mark I believe. So the 'true' market value is a lot less than what some dealers are trying to sell these at.

Very nice, Dieter!

You don't come across these very often and yours looks like it's in great condition even with the missing latch on the case.

Thanks for sharing!

Hello Avsar, greetings to you!

Thanks for that very interesting information, especially the point that after the 1900s, the mint mark changed in size in became much smaller.

It was a pretty battered one on Ebay and recall it went for around $200-$300. Galerie Numismatique sold a lower class badge a year or two ago for around 500 euros I believe.

Interesting piece but for an unofficial / ephemeral decoration with no identification other than the temple name, the prices seem a little high.

They're not too rare either given the number of examples that have appeared on the market.

Yeah, philanthropy award (similar to the Shanxi Catastrophe Relief Merit Order) came to mind, possibly for contributions to restoring the temple, possibly for some deed related to Sun Yan Sen's funeral.

Not sure what the NV represents. It kinda looks like two bridges over a river. Probably Buddhist symbolism of some sort.

Hey Nick,

I was watching that particular one and did some research. The Chinese characters read "Bi Yun Si" (Biyun Temple) and "Shou" (longevity) and "Fu" (happiness).

Bi Yun Temple or the Temple of the Azure Clouds is located in the Fragrant Hills north of Beijing. It includes the Sun Yat-sen Memorial Hall where his coffin was stored in 1925 before being taken to Nanjing. The temple was built during the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368) and underwent reconstruction during the Ming and Qing Dynasties. The interior buildings almost retain the style of the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644) completely.

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/beijing/biyun.htm

The sash badge had fairly good enamel work although nowhere near the quality of the official Republican awards. It was also very flat. The suspension device suggests Republic or early Nationalist period.

What is perplexing is why would a Temple be issuing Orders in different classes including a First Class award? And why would a French Air Force officer be given one?

I contacted Galerie Numismatique who were not able to provide any documentary evidence to support their assertion that it was indeed awarded to a French Air Force officer.

A curious piece but the price (1000 euros), plus the 20% auction commission, seems a little high for an unofficial / ephemeral award with no proven provenance.

Very nice. The replacement catch matches the medal well.

I couldn't locate it in Peterson so it must be a very uncommon medal.

I'd be melancholic too if the epitome of female beauty was the monobrow :lol:

Thanks JC, I will post a translation here:

The Order of the Brilliant Jade was established on 2 December 1933, and revised in 1935. On 12 February 1941, it was replaced by the Order of the Propitious Clouds and the Order of the Brilliant Star.

I reckon there's a lot of truth in that view which could have a historical basis going as far back as the Qing Dynasty.

The 1882 statutes for the Order of the Double Dragon details categories for (foreign) recipients. For the 4th Class it was lieutenants or NCOs. For the 5th Class it was businessmen. It would be extraordinary for a lieutenant or NCO to be brought to the attention of the Court or high ranking Qing officials who determined awards. No surprises that 4th or 5th Class Double Dragons are today very rare!

Very different to the Japanese awards. I recall reading somewhere that an ordinary soldier was automatically entitled to the Order of the Golden Kite 8th Class if he was killed in action.

Gah! Some (most ... ALL) of these fake Republican medals are ghastly with their lurid poster paint and the dead, staring eyes of the personages.

What's concerning however is when they appear on the auction lists of otherwise reputable auction houses. I won't name names but a well known European auction house had a whole clutch of these listed at auction a year or two ago.

Coupled with their "no refunds whatsoever" policy, it makes me nervous dealing with some of the Continental houses as opposed to like Spink or Morton & Eden who have the professional courage to stand by their reputation by offering refunds for fakes.

I've noticed with some Republic and Nationalist Orders, the rarest are often the lowest classes. For example, it's rare to find an 8th Class Striped Tiger and a 9th Class has never been seen to my knowledge. This is in contrast with the Japanese Orders such as the Auspicious Clouds.

In an old JOMSA article on the Order of the Brilliant Jade, James Peterson cites the China Yearbook 1945 for the number of awards from July 1937 to December 1943. Note that the Brilliant Jade was originally TWO separate awards (the "extraordinary class" Grand Order of the Brilliant Jade, which continues to be awarded today; and the nine-class Order of the Brilliant Jade). These numbers refers to the latter I'd imagine:

1st Class (14), 2nd Class (43), 3rd Class (82), 4th Class (100), 5th Class (144), 6th Class (69), 7th Class (32), 8th Class (11), 9th Class (5).

Compare this to the number of Auspicious Clouds awarded from 1934-1940 (from Peterson's book on Orders, Decorations and Medals of Japan and Associated States):

1st Class (110), 2nd Class (187), 3rd Class (701), 4th Class (1820), 5th Class (3447), 6th Class (6257), 7th Class (8329), 8th Class (33,706).

So I wonder whether the same is also true for the Brilliant Star, that very few were awarded in the lowest classes. Are there anything in the awarding criteria / statutes that might explain this?

Thanks for posting these photos, HC.

Fascinating to say the least, and very well documented as would be expected for an award still in the family).

Not only does it come with the miniature, it also comes with TWO rosettes.

I had a Saudi friend look at some Ottoman awarding documents for me.

He could phonetically read the script (Arabic) but the "sounds" made no sense to him as it was Turkish although there were some common words.

It took awhile for my mind to grasp, but it was no different to a French person reading a text in German. Unless he was also fluent in German, being able to read the text doesn't necessarily mean understanding the meaning of the words.