Bilco
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Posts posted by Bilco
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Hi Peron,
Your medal appears to have PAUL DUBOIS on the obverse so, if there is no LA or R anywhere, nor any markings on the edge, I'd say it is an Official Type 1 - especially as it comes from a supplier in Brussels.
Bill
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Hi Jim,
Yes, the sammler.ru suspension is odd. There is a close-up shot of it:
It looks like the suspension lug (it's too odd a shape to call a ball) is part of the planchet rather than soldered or welded on, and there is a lip on the top edge of it that must have been made after the filing was done. So, I wondering if the sequence of making it was:
1. make the blank with suspension lug
2. file the suspension lug flat on the back
3. put the blank in the die and strike the medal, producing the lip on the top edge of the lug
4. drill the hole through the lug - too close to the back, so raising the bump across the lug
The medal on eBay also seems to have the suspension lug integral with the planchet - indeed, there seems to be a plinth under the lug, much as the British Type 2 has. The lug was either made much more square than the sammler.ru one or filed to that shape.
It's a shame we don't know if there are any markings on the edge of these 2 medals. I can't see 'LA' or 'R' marks on them either, and there is no PAUL DUBOIS on the obverse. There doesn't seem to be a suspension like these in Jean-Michel's collection or anything like it in Laslo so the question is - what are they?
Bill
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Hi Jean-Michel,
I notice on the reverse of your medal that many of the letters in the names of the countries are 'filled-in'. On page 32 of the locked thread at the top of this section (second one down) http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/17245-ww1-victory-medals-of-the-world/page-32#entry451860 there is a photo of a very similar version at the bottom of the page, with a comparison shot of a 'standard' Official Type showing some other differences as well. However, the edge marks look good and there is speculation that Chobillon used two dies to produce the Cuban vic.
Bill
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Hi Jim,
There is a photo of a very similar Belgian vic on the sammler.ru site with the link in post #41 on page 3 of this thread. The Google translation is here http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsammler.ru%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D115165%26st%3D0%26%23entry1388950
No Paul Dubois and the strange flattened back to the rather square suspension.
Bill
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Many thanks Jean-Michel!
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Hi Jean-Michel,
An impressive collection. Am I right in thinking you don't have the Official Type 2? There doesn't seem to be a particularly shiny one amongst them.
My Janvier-Berchot has the larger BRONZE.
Bill
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Hi Gents,
I'm obviously a bit slow after the Christmas excesses - that picture of the Official Type 2 I mentioned in my last post is from Laslo! I thought I'd found something new on the sammler.ru site.
But has anyone got a photo of the Official Type 2 in colour, or another example? Is the strange flattening of the top of the ball suspension a one-off on the example Laslo saw, or is it on all these medals? Indeed, is the one Laslo saw a one-off that someone had gilded and polished for their own personal bit of bling?
Bill
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Hi Gents,
I finally found a photo of the Official Type 2 - albeit in black & white:
It appears to be a very rare variety.
Bill
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Hi 922F,
Many thanks for the very interesting information about the brass triangle on Peron's French vic. It makes perfect sense now!
Your comment "British and Commonwealth presenters sometimes use a somewhat similar procedure hanging the award on a metal hook preattached to recipient's clothing." reminded me of the passage in Robert Stanford-Tuck's autobiography, where he describes arriving at Buckingham Palace to receive a decoration from the King, and finding that he should have had a small hook sewn onto his uniform for the King to hang it from. A 'blushing WAAF' supplied a suitable hook, snipped from her underclothing, and it was quickly stitched on. It did the job, and the King didn't comment on the fact that it was pink instead of the regulation black.
Bill
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Hi Peron,
A nice example of the Belgium Unofficial Type 3 - or France Unofficial Type 3! Laslo has it under both countries, but I believe it was made for the French market.
Are you going to replace the ribbon?
Bill
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Hi Martin,
On the 'good grounding in knowledge' aspect - have you read through the 37 pages of the second topic from the top in this section? - http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/17245-ww1-victory-medals-of-the-world/
It covers the postings that were made before the dedicated Interallied Victory Medals of the Great War section was created - not long after I joined GMIC. There are lots of good colour photos of most of the vics and their varieties, as well as comparisons with dubious examples. These were my main source before I got my copy of Laslo - although I did the Inter-Library Loan bit as well.
Bill
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Hi Martin,
You can ask your local library to get Laslo on the Inter-Library Loan system, which will allow you to at least read through the content. It is the one book that vic collectors need though.
Bill
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Ho Peron,
Another nice Janvier-Berchot - but I've not seen a method of mounting quite like that before!
Bill
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I think the two officers wearing chip-bags are RAF, but the navy guys are more likely Dutch - the officers' insignia are in the same form (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_officers_of_NATO_Navies) and the cap-badge of the one in the centre of the rear rank doesn't look RN. The little one in the topee is Dutch too, I think.
My father was in Sumatra after the fall of Singapore, having been moved there with the rest of the groundcrew of 243 Squadron. They were servicing a squadron of Hurricanes until their own groundcrew arrived. When they did my father's outfit left the airfield at Palambang - just before (minutes before) the Japanese parachutists were dropped - he saw them as he drove away, and the Hurricane Sqn guys were all captured. He was lucky - with the rest of 243 Sqn he was taken over to Java, thence to India, and finally made it back to England - if he hadn't, I wouldn't be here!
Bill
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Hi Jean-Michel,
Returning to the subject of the unidentified stamp on the edge of you medal - there is a posting on GMIC dealing with French makers' marks and hallmarks:
http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/44224-french-makers-marks-hallmarks-guarantee-stamps/page-1
The coverage is pretty good but I haven't been able to find any likely candidates. Is it possible to see a straight-on close-up photo of the stamp?
There are also a couple of sites dealing with French marks:
http://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_makers_A.html
http://www.silvercollection.it/frenchsilversmithsD.html
It would be nice to nail down the maker of your medal!
Bill
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Hi Jean-Michel - many thanks.
Bill
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Hi Jean-Michel,
I had thought better about the Paris Mint mark, but the post I was writing got posted when I wasn't looking! I've deleted it now.
Can you give the diameter of the planchet to fill in the blank left by Laslo?
Bill
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Hi Jean-Michel,
Your medal is very interesting, not least because it has a suspension like the US vic, rather than the usual ball.
A very similar Portuguese vic was sold a while ago on the Wittworldwide site, and I posted a link to a photo at http://www.wittworldwide.com/images/portvicunoffx.jpg See page 3 of this thread, posts #48-50.
I believe that the MADE IN FRANCE stamp indicates that it was made after 1930, probably by Delande, who produced reproductions of most of the vics.
The one on Wittworldwide didn't show any edge stamps, but the suspension suggests that it was from the same maker. Laslo talks of a Type 2 Repro of the Portuguese vic with BRONZE and MADE IN FRANCE on the edge. He also says it has a ball suspension, but he didn't know the size of the planchet, so may have been assuming the suspension type.
So, you may have a rare Type 2 Repro - congratulations!
Bill
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Hi Gents,
I see our old friend mcstls on eBay is selling a Cuba vic with a very clear CHOBILLON signature on the obverse - item 221161410220. Also, the one that was for sale at $1300 - item 390492576759 (see page 2 of this thread, #29) - is now down to $1019.99, but still no takers - you have to admire the seller's persistence.
Bill
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Hi Lambert,
It certainly looks like the one you posted on the Fakes thread. The ones sold on eBay by the seller in Birmingham, England are much darker brown and the suspension ring is cast solid with the planchet.
Bill
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Hi Peron,
Your medal seems to have the characteristics of the Official type - apart from not having the Chobillon mark. Does it have the C Charles signature on the obverse? It certainly isn't the same as my locally-produced version. Are there any signs of it being cast?
Bill
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Many thanks Jean-Michel. A very nice acquisition.
Bill
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Hi Jean-Michel,
A nice example. It appears to be cast in the photo - does that match up with the 'in-hand' appearance?
Bill
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Hi Gents,
For a bit more info about Janvier-Berchot see http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v14n41a21.html
For a lot more about Janvier follow the link at the bottom to http://medalblog.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/janviers_pantograph/
Bill
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Belgian Victory Medals
in Inter-Allied Victory Medals of the Great War
Posted
Hi Oliver,
Many thanks for the response about this very interesting medal. What are your feelings about it - is it an altered Official Type 1 or does the suspension look original? Do you have any ideas about where it came from? Maybe you could let us know the diameter and thickness of the planchet to compare with other versions?
Bill