Bilco

HI Lambert,

When you say unofficial - does it have any marks on the edge? It seems to have the characteristics of the type that has raised differing views - the reverse has the M in Rumania and Montenegro as an upside down W, the position of the F in Francia, the IA in Grecia slightly raised etc.

Bill

Hi Gents,

Another thought occurs - if the dies were sent out from England for the vics to be struck in the Calcutta Mint, maybe a slightly different alloy was produce in India, hence the difference in finish?

Bill

Hi Gents,

Following on from the last post above - today I visited a dealer in Cheltenham and looked through his albums of British WW1 vics. He has some 25 issued to Indian recipients, and I could pick them out in the albums from the difference in colour from the ones to British recipients. In nearly all cases there was no trace of gilding - one had small areas of gilding on the obverse and one was clearly gilded as the standard British issue - and one definitely showed reduced detail on the obverse, maybe from diligent polishing.

So the question remains - were they made differently by the Calcutta Mint, or were they overly polished (by everyone), or was there some effect from the climate that acted on the gilding?

Bill

Hi Gents,

Ooops! the correct link is http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58926-interesting-ww1-vic-medal-document/

Apologies

Bill

Hi Gents,

Reading through the thread on French vics on the FIM web site, I found a picture of a Morlon vic that did not have any makers marks on the reverse - no cornucopia or triangle and no BR. I have one that is very similar ....

Like the one on the FIM site, the obverse appears to have worn gilding, especially visible on the figure of Victory.

The reverse seems to have no obvious marks at the 6 o'lock - there are a couple of slightly brighter spots, but even under magnification ...

... there are no obvious marks, and a high-res scan doesn't show anything better ...

So, is this a genuine markless version, or is it like the one in my post #68 on this thread?

Bill

Hi Gents,

An interesting thread about a Japanese vic document here http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/49850-japanese-victory-medals/page-4

Bill

Hi Lambert,

A nice example - I hope you didn't pay too much for it! I see our old friend mcstls has three on eBay at the moment - one of each type - at a starting price of $78.

There seem to be at least 3 suspension types and 3 reverses, so potentially 9 variants ...

Bill

Hi Gents,

Last week I was in Cambridge and took the opportunity to visit the Fitzwilliam Museum to view the Lester Watson Collection WW1 Victory medals, which I posted about in post #93 of this thread. I rang a week beforehand to make an appointment, and the Coins and Medal Department were very accommodating. I was able to handle the medals and examine them under a magnifying glass.

These are the conclusions I came to:

Great Britain - Official Type 2 - it is un-named but may have had naming erased - the photo on the Fitzwilliam web site seems to show the planchet oddly out of round in the lower part. This isn't apparent 'in hand' but the lower edge of the medal seems slightly rounded - the rim isn't as sharp as at the top.

Belgium - Official Type 1

US with ATLANTIC FLEET clasp - Official Type 2, with Fulford clasp.

US without clasp - Official Type 2 - named 'L.WATSON CAPT. A.S.A.' On the web site http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/archives/statewide/military/wwI/casualty/14.html
there is a list of abbreviations from WW1, which has A.S.A. as Air Service, Military Aeronautics, and there is some detail here http://en.allexperts.com/q/Military-History-669/2008/3/S-Det.htm

Czechoslovakia - French-made Repro Type 1 - no edge markings.

France - Official Type.

Japan - French-made Repro - no edge markings.

Greece - Unofficial Type 2.

Portugal - Official Type 2.

Romania - Unofficial Type 1.

South Africa - Official Type 1 - named to Dvr. A. KARSTEN C.A.H.T.C. - Cape Auxiliary Horse Transport Corps.

Cuba - This medal has the BRONZE stamp on the edge, plus a very clear triangle with AC inside. The reverse matches the one posted on the Cuba thread post # 6, rather than the one in Laslo. I have called it Official Type.

Italy - Official Type 2.

According to the information on the Fitzwilliam web site the dates of purchase of these medals were taken from Lester Watson's own catalogue cards, with most being bought by 1928. As you see, they are a mixture of Official, Unofficial and Repro.

Bill

Hi Gents,

I've just joined the Forum Insignes et Medailles -

Once in the site there are threads of interest to us:

http://insignes-medailles.forumpro.fr/t3354-les-interalliees-pautot-mattei

http://insignes-medailles.forumpro.fr/t3055-medaille-de-la-victoire-ou-interalliee-modeles-pour-les-francais

http://insignes-medailles.forumpro.fr/t3478-les-agrafes-de-la-medaille-interalliee-usa

to name but a few. Google Translate has been working overtime here!

Bill

Hi Gents,

There's an interesting discussion about the Delaware Victory medal over on the US M ilitaria Forum - http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/176637-a-small-ww-i-collection-from-a-small-state-delaware/

Bill

Hi Balazs - the standard lining in my day was grey, but you could get the military tailors to make it with any colour you liked for a bit more money. The real show-offs had red silk linings - as the aristocratic members of the Royal Auxiliary Air Force fighter squadrons were said to have done.

Bill

Hi Balazs,

It wouldn't be possible just to change the bottom button to one with the crown and eagle, as it is mounted higher up and would still be hidden by the belt - although there would be a bulge in the belt! The photo in the second link shows the positioning - more images here http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-British-RAF-Wool-No-1-Belted-Uniform-Tunic-Jacket-Blue-Grey-1960s-2523-/180993063989?pt=UK_Men_s_Suits_Tailoring&ssPageName=RSS%3AB%3ASHOP%3AGB%3A101&hash=item2a2406fc35&nma=true&si=JHEMLcOeVfejthImWpwQuSdPBas%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Bill

Hi Balazs,

It is certainly of a pattern before 1963, when I got mine - the clue is in the bottom button. On my No 1 HD uniform the bottom button is plain and is hidden behind the belt, while yours is a standard button with crown and eagle and sits below the belt - do you have the belt as well?

There is a guide to wartime RAF uniforms here http://www.ww2rafgroup.org/downloads/1940s%20RAF%20Uniform%20Guidance%20V3%20feb%202011.pdf and there is a photo of the 1960s pattern here http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/5/8/1/7/9/0/webimg/611077402_o.jpg you can see the plain bottom button.

Bill

Hi Jim,

The last image definitely looks like a bee - seems to be a good case for Delande. I just wish I could find other images!

Bill

I've had a play with the images ...

On the left is the mark from the last of Rob's images, rotated through 180 degrees, and on the right the mark from Jim's image, rotated right through 90 degrees.

I can convince myself that they both have a bee in the lower part of the square, and I think there is a letter M in the top left corner and D in the top right corner.

Or am I headed for the Home for the Terminally Bewildered?

Bill

edited to improve the image

Hi PAul,

There isn't much around about the Delande mark - in fact these are the only photos I've been able to find so far (thanks Rob).

The mark is: M - a bee - D (before 1942) or P - a bee - D (after 1942) according to the French hallmarks thread here on GMIC.

Bill.

Well, on this site I found this thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/44224-french-makers-marks-hallmarks-guarantee-stamps/page-4

and in post #63 there are two rectangular stamps, with just one of them square - Adrien Chobillon. However, I can't make out the crossed batons and AC on the medal Jim posted - or the eagle's head in the other one.

Then also see http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/41954-french-medal-makers-hallmark-identification/ post #2 - while post #6 gives some identification - Delande?

Bill

Paul - I've also been trying to discern the markings inside the square stamp, but can't get much out of the enlargements. What we need is to find out which firm - or firms - used a stamp like this - there are plenty of lozenges and triangles, but I havent come across a square yet.

Bill

What about the square mark to the left of BRONZE? - it doesn't match any of the Victory makers' marks I've come across before.

Bill

Hi Christer,

I've just come across this thread in another forum, which deals with fighting in Corsica - http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&p=1491508

About a quarter of the way down - the posts aren't numbered - there are a couple of shots of Me323 being shot down by USAAF Marauder aircraft near Corsica - not Beaufighters near Malta, as I thought! One shot has appeared many times but the other is not so well known..

Best wishes,

Bill

Hi John,

It looks like the Italian Air Force pilots wings - see this photo -

The site this photo is from has more info on this pilot - http://italianalmanac.org/2009/astronaut.htm

Bill

His Squadron - 54(F) - was operating the Jaguar GR1 in the period he was serving with them, in the ground attack role. In this period the Squadron had aircraft operating out of Gioia del Colle in Italy over the FRY.

Bill

Hi Christer,

I remember reading an article in the RAFA magazine AirMail some years ago about a flight of the Me323 which was trying to fly badly needed supplies from Sicily to the Afrika Corps, when they were intercepted by Beaufighters out of Malta, with the inevitable consequences!

There are some photos here http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=me+323+photos&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=14JpUd6LC-G_0QWsg4HYBw&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1358&bih=549 and there seem to be several books that deal with the Me 321 and 323.

I met an ex-Luftwaffe pilot, who had flown the Me323 in Russia, when I was stationed in Germany in the late 1980s. My German was very basic, so our conversation through his son was rather mundane. He had been captured by the Russians and not released until the early 1950s. He said that his Russian was excellent, but his English non-existant!

Bill

Hi Jean-Michel,

You're quite right - there is a photo of a blank top copy of the application form in post # 150 in the American Victory Medal thread.

Bill

Hi Gents,

I'm not sure if this type of US Application Form has already appeared in the Forum - I found it on a genealogy web site (another of my interests).

Bill