Bilco

Hi Gents,

These two Italy vics are both by S Johnson. Are either of them the Reissue Type 1?

The left-hand one in the first two photos has a bright finish but looks 'scrubbed', as if someone has rubbed it with a toothbrush. The right-hand one is bright and I don't think it's been polished, as the inside of the staffa is just as bright as the rest of the planchet. There is a slight difference in colour, not obvious in the photos: the left-hand planchet has a reddish tint, while the right-hand one is brassy.

One of the characteristics of the Reissue Type 1 is the absence of dots between the words at the bottom of the reverse. The left-hand medal reverse has very small dots, not unlike my Official Type 2, while on the right-hand one the dots are larger and more easily visible.

Another characteristic of the Reissue Type 1 is a thinner planchet: in the photo below the medal positions are reversed; the one on the right looks thinner than the left one (despite my poor photo)

So, the left-hand medal in the first two photos seems to show more of the characteristics of the Reissue Type 1, but the right-hand one has a bright finish. What does the team think I have?

All answers welcome,

Bill

Hi Gents,

These two are both the Official Type 1, but one has a smaller ball and larger suspension ring than the other:

The balls are just over .5mm different in diameter, while the rings are quite visibly different. Is this significant enough to call them sub-variants or varieties?

Bill

HI David,

A nice pick-up - and nicer still to have an officer's MIC with the date of issue of the medals shown.

Bill

Hi Besu,

The medal was awarded by the Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs - see http://www.nsra.co.uk/index.php/home/reference/history/memorabilia/medals-mainmenu-127?task=view

There are details about the SMRC here http://rifleman.org.uk/Society_of_Miniature_Rifle_Clubs.htm including a photo of your medal, and some more on the medals here http://rifleman.org.uk/SMRC_Medals.htm

I don't have any idea on values, however.

Hope this helps,

Bill

Hi Rick,

Translating the whole phrase - "Preparation of aviator masks and cover from view, exploration and determination of observation = and command positions" - could it mean camouflage against detection by aircraft?

Bill

Many thanks for the extra photos Jim - there certainly is a common flaw there which is a great 'tell' for this medal.

Bill

Many thanks for your comments Jim, and the point about the imperfection.

Laslo is a little vague on his Unofficial Type 2 - 'often seen with significant die cracks' tends to suggest that there are un-cracked Type 2s as well, plus some with ball suspension and some with narrow cylinder. Perhaps he has conflated two distinct variants of Type 2, or maybe all those with the narrow cylinder suspension are made by Buttuller and are your Unofficial Type 1.

My 'cracked-die' is 34+mm diameter too, while my Official Type 2 is just 35mm - a difference of less than 1mm. Maybe the Buttuller pieces were not made to very close tolerances!

Bill

Hi Gents,

Still on the theme of the Portugal vics - I have just received what I think is the Unofficial Type 2 (non-cracked-die) version:

Obverse ...

Reverse ...

The diameter is a shade over 34mm, and going by Laslo's descriptions that fits the Unoff Type 2. He also says it's cruder in the finish, and this one has ridges on the edges, although I don't think it's cast. It was a coppery tone, and Victory's face is a bit crude. There's a slight raised rim to the reverse - from stamping out the planchet? The feathers on the wings are just raised wavy lines, and the crosses on the reverse have a pebbled background, rather than textured:

Laslo leads me to believe that the Unoff Type 1 is similar, but with a diameter of 35+mm.

All comments welcome.

Hi Gents,

My latest acquisition - the repro Portugal vic by Delande:

Obverse

Reverse

The Deland square stamp with the bee and BRONZE on the edge.

BRONZE on the suspension ring.

Sadly, someone has polished away the patina, but I haven't come across one for sale before so I'll put up with a shiny medal!

Any comments welcome.

Bill

HI Gents,

It's said of London buses, that you wait hours for one, then two turn up together. I'm hoping this is also the case with the Type 1! My latest acquisition:

Obverse:

Reverse:

Close-up of suspension on reverse:

And close-up of join in the ring, showing the obverse:

The ring is a bit mis-shapen. This medal is darker brown that the one in post # 162, the surface is rather smoother, and there is a slight reddish tinge, especially on the reverse. However, the suspension is soldered. I notice now that the Type 1 doesn't have such a marked plinth for the suspension, as this also shows. The edge matches the obverse and reverse in tone.

The medal was awarded to Cpl A Hodgson of the RE and Labour Corps - another of those, Rob! Sadly, there is no document in his Service Records to show when the medal was sent to him - is it possible to determine this from the information on the MIC?

So, am I right with this one, too? All comments welcome.

Bill

Hi MIchael,

The left-hand card is relates to a different Walter Cole, who served in the Labour Corps with the service number 436730. The right-hand card is rhe Medal Index Card for the Walter Cole who was also awarded the Silver War Badge, and it lists the medals he was entitled to - the Victory Medal, British War Medal and 1914-15 Star. Top right is this Walter Cole's service number - S2/ 015079.

Bill

Ancestry certainly shows the last two numbers reversed between the SWB and MIC lists. On his pension records (also with Ancestry) the original shows S2/015079, so it look like the SWB list is wrong - the original, not just the transcription. However, I can't turn up any other service record on Ancestry for either service number.

I agree, from his pension records, it seems very unlikely that the medal group belongs to him.

Bill

Hi Micha,

Very strange. In the Medal Rolls this man comes up with this number, but not in the WW1 Soldiers Records. He seems to have been awarded the Military Medal, from the group of miniatures, so that should be recorded somewhere. I'll keep looking and let you know what comes up!

Bill

Hi MIchael,

Details of the person awarded Silver War Badge:

Name: Walter Cole; Discharge Unit: A. S. C. E. F. C.; Regiment: Army Service Corps; Regimental Number: S2/015097; Rank: A/Sgt.; Badge Number: 437588; Piece: 3216; List Number: RASC 2501-2750 ; Record Group: WO; Record Class: 329

Hope this helps,

Bill

I think the mystery swept-wing aircraft looks more like this http://www.luft46.com/horten/ho13b.html

Bill

Hi Rob,

Many thanks for your comments. The joint in the suspension ring shows solder but there is a gap and the ends of the ring arre slightly mis-aligned:

The joint on one of my Type 2s for comparison:

Were your two Labour Corps men early discharges like my Pte Kimble? With a big enough database of the dates of issue of the Type 1 vics we might be able to see a common thread - early discharges, certain units - did the Labour Corps admin staff have a particular order in which they issued the medals to their people, for example.

Regards,

Bill

Many thanks for the thumbs-up, Dick - I was beginning to think I'd never find one!

Bill

Hi Gents,

Well, I'm hoping my search for the elusive Official Type 1 is over. Just received today, a WW1 pair to Private A L Kimble of the Devonshires and Labour Corps. Joined aged 40, discharged in 1917.

Obverse:

Reverse:

It has the 'chocolate' colour and matt finish, and the all-important soldered suspension - some close-ups:

Obverse:

and reverse:

Finally, his records at TNA include a slip sent out with the medals, requiring him to sign to acknowledge receipt, and it appears to be dated 17/12/20 - before the Type 2 started to be issued in January 1921:

So, am I right? All comments welcome.

Bill

Hi Gents,

There are several threads on the US Militaria Forum which have some relevence to this discussion:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/706-numbering-naming-on-us-medals/

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1020-posthumous-wwii-us-navy-air-medals-engraving-styles/

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/10926-wwii-officially-named-aaf-dfcs-and-air-medals-to-pows/

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/212336-original-engraved-wwii-soldiers-medal/

Bill

Hi Ornyx,

There is a photo of the Type 1 on this page http://www.medailles1914-1918.fr/portugal-interal.html and a picture of the plaster master in post # 120 on this thread.

Bill

Hi David,

I think your identifications are correct. The Official type 4 you show seems to have been gilded. The Unofficial type 1 has a smaller figure of Victory, as well as being a smaller planchet.

Good buys.

Bill

Lambert, I've been comparing your medal above with my, tentatively-identified, Cuban-made vic - post # 46, page 3. There are plenty of differences on obverse and reverse - not least that yours doesn't have the die crack on the reverse. Do I understand from the photos on eBay that yours has no C Charles on the obverse and no markings on the edge?

Bill

Hi Gents,

Well, it's time to confess that it was I who bought the Romanian Unofficial Type 3a mentioned above! As the £ sterling is reasonably high against the US $ the price in sterling doesn't sound nearly as frightening, and if I had seen the medal on a UK dealer's web site at this price I wouldn't have hesitated to buy it. I am glad that the other bidder didn't quite go to my maximum bid, though!

Anyway, I now have the medal in hand, and I'm very pleased with it. It's a nice crisp striking in good condition, and I've been able to replace the modern ribbon with something more in period.

Obverse

Reverse, showing the oval links to the chain, and the correct G in BELGIA and ANGLIA, and the C instead of G in CRECIA.

Bill

Hi Gents,

If anyone is looking for Laslo's book 2nd edition, there are a couple on eBay at the moment: item # 321370040151, and item # 191094448893

Bill

Hi David,

From the colour and lack of diacritical marks I'd say it's a modern copy.

Bill