Paul L Murphy

Ed,

Are there any documents which name the unit in which he served ? If you have only the award certificates it will not give you unit details and can be very difficult to research in any detail.

Any certificates for the Golden Kite above the 7th class are scarce, with the 6th class actually harder to find than 5th in my personal experience.

Paul

Tim,

You are a fast learner, well done

Regarding the rosettes, the type you show with your fifth class award is indeed a 6th class rosette. For the Showa (and later) lapel rosettes basically the class is shown as follows : -

8th class - unpleated and three lines radiating from the centre

7th class - unpleated and four lines radiating from the centre

6th class - unpleated and six lines radiating from the centre

5th class - unpleated and eight lines radiating from the centre

4th class - pleated, normally with eight pleats

3rd class - as 4th but with a silver strip of bullion cloth behind the rosette (same as the French do)

3nd class - as 3rd but the strip is half silver half gilt

1st class - as 2nd but strip is gilt.

I am not sure when they introduced the bullion strips for the higher class, and they do not seem to have been consistent in use. The earlier rosettes used more complicated pleating but it actually gets difficult to determine the different classes (which is probably why they changed).

In terms of stock of medals for awards, it is less an issue with the Sacred Treasure where awards are more spread but you need to remember that for the Rising Sun there were massive numbers awarded in 1906 for the Russo Japanese War and again in April 1940 for the China Incident. There were also large bestowals for the 1914-20 campaign and Manchurian Incident in 1934 but the previous two dwarf everything else. Hence, most medals would have been made to order for the bestowals rather than a stock of millions being held all the time.

Regards,

Paul

Erik,

The pleated round rosettes are for higher classes of the order, not a time related variation. Also my understanding of the way the mint worked is that they tended to make roughly the amount they needed to issue, rather than hold stock. Hence, if you get a Meiji style case with a Showa style medal it is probably put together for sale. The only way to be certain is to get groups with the documents (but even then you can never be 100% sure).

Best regards,

Paul

Tim,

The case on the right is earlier. I have asked some very experienced dealers in Japan about this issue over the years but nobody is able to say what is late Meiji versus what is Taisho. Regarding the veins on the leaf, frm what I have checked in terms of known groups where the award can be dated, basically the longer the fourth vein on the leaf the earlier the striking.

Regards,

Paul

Any idea why they bothered at all, and didn`t just say right heres the Yen take it or leave it, your national currency is now worthless?

Allowing the yen to circulate freely in occuipied territories would have been a dangerous economic strategy since it would have reduced the Bank of Japan's ability to protect the currency. The Japanese economy at the time was not large or strong enough to absorb external shocks on its currency, hence they created this occupation currency which was completely worthless in reality.

There are also notes for Australia, which were obviously never issued but they were printed and can be found without much difficulty.

It is not possible to tell the year of issue since the design has stayed the same.

Gentleman, start your engines. This is Rising Sun 1st Class document from postwar Japan. It was awarded to an American General even! The starting price is $499.00 though. I am automatically out of the running. I am not sure if this is fair, but we will see.

The link is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

This is now in my collection, and at what I consider to be a very good price. The signature in the middle is the hand written signature of Hirohito.

Paul

The reason I know about French is because I have his award certificate in my collection so I have researched it a bit, but I do not know about the other three. You could possibly check the London Gazette but they may not be gazetted.

Kitchener was also made a Japanese Marshal, the only non-Japanese person ever to get that award.

Lilo,

That is correct. A good example is General Sir John French. He recevied the Pawlonia Flowers but never got the Rising Sun.

Regards,

Paul

Thanks, Paul. Hoped you'd set us straight.

We need a better reference than Peterson, I guess. (Hint, hint.)

I know, it is very tempting. My problem is that I am a prefectionist, which is why it took five years for Steve and I to write the last book since we kept finding new information. While a book on Japanese orders and medals would not take as long it is just a matter of finding the time to do it. I would want to include certificates, cases etc. so it would be a real labour of love.

I am gathering lots of photo images of anything interesting that passes through my hands so one of these days I will be able to launch into it.

It was always considered a seperate order, however you had to already have received the Grand Cordon of the Rising Sun before you could get it. This latter rule was applicable to Japanese recipients only.

If you received both Grand Cordons, Rising Sun and Rising Sun with Pawlonia Flowers, you could wear both.

Regards,

Paul

Many thanks for the information, that was most informative.

Paul

I picked up two sets of Spanish collar badges over the weekend at a flea market. The first pair are very nice enamelled with a screback fitting. I am presuming they are officer quality cavalry corps but would be grateful for confirmation.

The second pair are not as good but still enamelled with loops for split pins on the reverse. Are these Infantry badges and later officer's pieces, or earlier other ranks pieces ?

Grateful for all help in pinning these down more accurately.

Cheers,

Paul

I picked this up in a flea market in Madrid at the weekend. It has 1 Abril 1939, Victoria on the obverse and 18 Julio 936, Alzamienta on the reverse. Can anyone pin this down as to exactly what it is ?

Many thanks.

Paul

Jorge,

Looking back through posts I realised I had never thanked you for this information. I am not sure if it is the same expedition but it is the closest information I have so far.

Many thanks,

Paul

I just re-read the original post. I thought it was ?60 for the pair, if it is ?60 each then it is tooooo much ! The combined value of these is ?75-90, depending on how good they look together and the level of damage.

I would take them. The Maroc Medal is scarcer than the Legion of Honour. Together they are worth more than you are being asked, I would put the L d'H at about $50-60and the Maroc Medal with bar at about $100-120, given how weak the $ is at the moment. Hence, you are getting ?75-90 worth at least.

Chris,

I seem to remember reading that the Legion has a saying to the effect that you should remember your weapon was built by the company that made the lowest cost bid. It seems the same is true of army issue bayonets !

Some of the medals are very good but the orders, ie anything with enamel, would never fool a collector who had ever come close to an original. They are made from cheap plated metal, cold enamel and paste stones and look more like costume jewels in terms of quality. They are for the tourist trade so I do not think we need to get worried about them being passed off as genuine, the quality just is not there.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the later strikings are thicker than the original 1941 pieces, but are completely original. When I am back in ireland I will try to go through my stuff and weigh, measure the lot since I have examples of both types.

Glad to help. It is normally me who is picking your brains on German stuff so anything that helps redress the balance is welcome

I found it

It is illustrated in "Insignes de l'Armee Francaise, Les Sahariens" by Jean-Francois Boucher which is the standard reference work for Saharan badges. It is shown on plate 28 (insignia 8) and is described as being a unit badge of the Section de Sapeurs Telegraphistes du 33 Genie, ie. the Signal Section of the 33rd Engineering Regiment. A footnote, however, says that this description is given with reserve since it is controversial and unconfirmed.

In short, even the expert didn't know but that is the best guess that we have. It appears to be quite a rare badge since it was not in the large Saharan collection that was sold via Lavocat in France in 2003 (that collection had almost everything in it but not this one).

Hi Kevin,

I meant the barrack stores. Unfortunately things in the stores are not as tightly controlled as they were in days gone by. I have it on very reliable knowledge that a number of these medals as well as at least 2 MMG 1st Class, and 3 each of the 2nd and 3rd class MMG, a few DSMs and about 20 unissued 1916 Medals were allegedly pilfered from stores over the space of a few years. The army also decided to destroy their stock of Emergency medals and most of these leaked out into the collector's market as well.

Best regards,

Paul

It is a French unit badge, as worn on the tunic pocket, and definitely not Foreign Legion. The shape is similar to Saharan badges but I am not familiar with this particular one.

The unnamed pieces are basically the unissued stock which went out the back door of the stores once the decision was made not to issue any more. ALL of the issued pieces were offically named and numbered. Anyone who trys to claim otherwise is spinning yarns.

Cheers,

Paul