Paul L Murphy

Actually the easiest way to date a 7th or 8th class Rising Sun is by using the length of the 3rd curling vein in the leaf counting out from the bottom. I have observed a few hundred pieces over the years, including a good few examples in groups or with documents where I am comfortable that they were an original pairing, and the basic rule is that the longer the vein, the older the striking.

On this piece the 3rd vein ends just at the indentation of the leaf, which would lead me to suggest that it is from the Taisho era (Siberian expedition or thereabouts). Russo Japanese War pieces have a longer vein that protrudes below the level of the indentation while China Incident era pieces are shorter and end above it.

What is interesting is that the later post war pieces again have a longer vein but they have no enamel on the reverse of the 7th class and have a different "feel" to the depth of the overall stamping.

One of my mentors in Japan, Mori san in Tokyo, believed that the pasteboard cases for orders were from the early 1940s. There is no solid proof for this but it makes sense since they are pretty rare (and are normally Sacred Treasure awards which continued to be bestowed for long service). Mori san has been collecting and dealing in Japanese militaria since before most of us were born (he started in the 1950s) so I tend to believe him in this regard.

Interesting theory but can we look at the blue in isolation ? If you look at the central octahedron of the unmarked 3rd class piece it looks slightly convex in the photo. Is that a trick of the light or is it actually the case ? The reason I ask is that the other three all look flat. Also if you look at the size of the silver dots in the outer rim of the 5th class pieces there is a considerable difference in size, however this is not the case for the two 3rd class pieces.

None of this is easy, hence the need to avoid jumping to conclusions too quickly !

I agree with Nick on this, I do not think the first box and medal go together. The medal is 1930s Osaka Mint for sure, but the box is the type of kanji used in the Meiji-Taisho eras. I have examples of this type of kanji with medal & document groups ranging from the Russo Japanese War to 1920s (slight differences in the calligraphy but the same basic style of kanji). Any groups I have seen from the Manchurian Incident onwards where I have been comfortable that the medals belong together with the documents and have not been messed with have the later style kanji on the lid. Hence, in the absence of new information I believe the switchover in kanji came somewhere in the late 20s. Japanese delaers are terrible for "mixing and matching" medals and boxes without any regard to the correct era.

Yep, you are right about this one.

I shouldn't make this statement in such incontestable manner.

Especially when I don't have any hard proofs. Just rumors.

Making sweeping statements without any hard evidence will not help anyone gain a better understanding of the subject, nor indeed will it do anything to enhance your own credibility. It seems that whenever your theories are disrupted by evidence and facts you either ignore them or twist them in order to suit your preconceived view. This is very poor scholarship. You need to adapt your theories to suit the evidence, not the other way around.

I do not think it is a veteran presentation piece, but rather a display piece that shows what the medal looks like. The inscription on the plate at the bottom says that it is a "Mockup of the Great East Asian War Medal". The first kanji in the inscription is the Japanese word "maboroshi" which means an illusion, apparition, mockup etc. It is a strange choice of word for this inscription and is not what would be put on a veteran display piece. I suggest it is probably a display piece from a museum, or other public display.

Still a very nice piece, it will look nice on your wall !

Nick,

You state that the numbering of certificates is not continuous. Can you advise on what evidence you base this assumption ?

A little Puzzle

Well, there is one strange thing …

Let me explain.

According to Peterson Order of Auspicious Clouds was "… exact equivalent of the Japanese Order of the Rising Sun" (p. 142 of the 3^rd edition) and Order of Pillars of State "…corresponds to the Japanese order of Sacred Treasure" (p. 147, 3^rd edition).

Usual ratio for conferred Suns/Treasures at least 1:3 (or even higher!).

And the ratio for Clouds/Pillars 0,72:1 (for conferred orders during 1934-1940) and 1,05/1 (for minted orders during 1934-1945).

Strange looking ratios!

Well, this is not exactly what you expect from "exact equivalents"...

Cheers,

Nick

Nick,

I am a firm believer that there are lies, damned lies, and statistics ! The Auspicious Clouds was the equivalent to the Rising Sun, and the Pillars of State was the equivalent of the Sacred Treasure. Just because the award ratio is different does not change that. Also I have no idea where you got the award ratio for Rising Sun to Sacred Treasure of 1:3 ! The number of Rising Suns awarded was actually consistently higher than the number of Sacred Treasures, notwithstanding that it was the senior award. This was mainly due to the fact that the Sacred Treasure tended to be used as a long service award, whereas the Rising Sun was used for merit and low level acts of bravery. Hence it was very heavily awarded during war time.

If you look at actual awarded certificates you can very quickly realise this.

In March 1905 certificate number 74,011 of the Rising Sun was awarded.

In May 1905 certificate number 100,520 of the Sacred Treasure was awarded

The lowest number certificate for the 1st April 1906 bestowal relating to the Russo Japanese War that I have seen for the Rising Sun is certificate number 95,954. The highest is 719,509. Hence at least 623,555 Rising Sun awards were made for the Russo Japanese War.

The lowest certificate number I have seen for 1906 for the Sacred Treasure is 111,965 and the highest is 363,239 (certificate 396,491 was awarded in 1908). Hence the number of Sacred Treasures handed out in the mass 1906 bestowal was at most 251,274, about 40% the number of Orders of the Rising Sun.

Counter-intuitive but true !

This pattern continues in other conflicts. The China Incident saw at least 1,763,941 awards of the Rising Sun (the highest certificate number is 3,005,155 in the April 1940 bestowal) but about 480,904 Sacred Treasures.

I have been observing certificate numbers and dates for many years now and intend writing an article on the subject when I have the time. The Golden Kite certificate numbers also throw a lot of light on the numbers awarded for the different conflicts so I will try to write on that shortly. Suffice to say at the moment that certificate number 296,773 was awarded in April 1940 and this is the highest numbered certificate I have seen thus far. Most awards of the Golden Kite were made post 1940 and were posthumous awards. Japanese sources (I will need to dig them out) estimate that nearly 30% of all Japanese combat deaths post 1940 resulted in a posthumous award of the Golden Kite in the appropriate class for the casualty concerned. This would explain the number of pristine Showa era pieces that turn up in their boxes of issue !

Paul

Are they outright fakes or were they made as collector's pieces ? Also can anyone post a picture of the correct ID badge ?

Whats written in the lid of the boxes? Hopefully not "Made in the EU" ;-)

I dont see a royal coat of arms with "By appointment....."

It says Royal Mint with the mint crest to the left of the wording.

Mr Seller,

Good to see you here sir ! I hope that the weather in Aberdeen is not getting you down after all that sunshine out east.

Cheers,

Paul :cheers:

My only concern here is that if we get such a section in the Japanese forum then there is a need to create such a section in a lot of other fora as well. With the Wanted sections where they are at the moment it is surely easier for people to search rather than having them scattered around all the different fora here ?

Incredibly rare ! By Meiji 35 over 1,600 foreigners had been awarded the Rising Sun in its different classes so this is a very nice early award indeed. Is this in a private collection or a museum ?

These were used from the post Russo Japanese period onwards. There are very slight changes, especially in the collars and the shako, over the years but the dress uniform stayed pretty similar for quite a while.

Can you show a closeup of the left hand side of the certificate since I want to read the number please ?

Not sure on the significance of the different stripe and sash colours for the officials. There is no good information on this in English that I am aware of. I need to dig into my Japanese references and see if they shed any light on it.

It is a uniform for an administrative official in the army as you guessed. However it is nothing to do with military police. All admin officials wore this type of uniform with the black on the cuffs and collar, irrespective of the army of service to which they were attached.

These are harder to find than the army officer dress uniforms but are generally not as popular with collectors.

I have looked through my Japanese reference books and cannot find any mention of this insignia. I suspect it is a post war fantasy creation rather than a genuine badge.

I would say that this is from the post 1945 period but pre 1956 when the names changed. I have seen this type of box a few times in Japan, it is definitely not something that was "homemade". Red Cross awards are difficult to date since the cases changed so often !

Igor,

This is later than Nick indicated since the lack of rivets on the reverse is the key factor in dating it. It is from the late 90s or more recent.

Regards,

Paul

This is one of the many fantasy fake medals that are coming out of China at the moment. You can recognise them since they are made from poor quality metal, have the similar ribbon as this and are painted instead of any enamelling.

An interesting examination, clearly you have put a lot of work into this. Let's all digest it and add comments once we have had a chance to absorb what you have written.

Fascinating topic. Please keep the information coming !

It is a masonic Knight's Templar breast star. Pre WWII hallmark should go for about £80-100 I would guess.

Many thanks for your comments and information. I have seen a couple of the Meiji era certs without the signature and despite the fact that they are very rare they tend to sell for less than correctly signed certs. I think it is because the Japanese collectors value the signature a lot.

My avatar is the cert for the Rising Sun with Pawlonia Flowers to Field Marshal Lord French, and it is rare !