Willi

Willi, An interesting combination. I think with the higher grades of the RAO, PCO and St. Micheal the bar should be traced. We will wait for the "master" to appear and see.

Well, who ever the "master" is, he has apparently no clue!

Another magnificent IDENTIFIED Bar whose history is now lost. Truly this is a crime of the 1st magnitude. The entire lifes work of this man is now gone.

Dan Murphy

Where has all the information gone to? Is there nothing left w the family?

In my eyes neither the rank and miltary career of the recipient nor the condition and rarity of the medals and orders would justify such a high price ($ 2333 at the moment). A nice peace-time medal bar, but not extremely extraordinary. I got many better ones for less.

And here the document for the clasp:

Hi Willi,

Very nice medal bar and Carl Eduard cross. I have got one ribbon bar with same ribbon (except for the frontk?mpfer Ehrenkreuz).

Like I'm writing one paper for one military review about Saxe Coburg Gotha subjet, can I use with your permission your photos (I will send you a pm).

Have a look about my ribbon bar.

Regards

Christophe

Hi Christophe,

of course you have the permission to use the pictures, if you need pics with a higher resolution please let me know, I will email them to you.

I also own an award document for one of these medals, see enclosed picture. For the medals w swords and date different battlefield clasps were awarded, I have an award document for the clasp ROEUX, another clasp is YPERN. You can find a picture of a large medal bar with both clasps in S. Previteras book Prussian Blue abot the Blue Max. As far as I know the award document for the clasp ROEUX is the only one known.

Regards,

Willi

Claudio, what a beauty! I guess the recipient was in diplomatic service?

Here a picture of the back:

I have learned from the fantastic books by Neal O'Connor that in 1915 just 29 medals w swords and date were awarded but I do not have a list of recipients.

This Carl-Eduard-Kriegskreuz came w th medal bar.

Another bar in my collection I do nothing Know about the recipient, is somebody able to find out the person? The enameled orders are real gold. Perhaps from a medical doctor? Thanks.

Detail.

Is somebody able to find out the person to whom this medal bar belonged? The date on the medal is 5/6. 3. 1915. Thanks.

Nice bar, all parts original! Congratulation!

Gentlemen, Willi is correct on this issue. It is not quite so simple as the shape of the well for the hinge. There are many other factors to be considered when dealing with Bavarian Aviation badges. Yes, I know that Robert Pandis rejects all badges with this crown well.... but it wasn't that many years ago that he also accepted Juncker "crown" badges as original. There are many points to be considered.....

You are abolutely right, I would say, if you have 20 Poellath badges in your hand, they are all different, which does not make it easier to detect fakes. I do not know why Poellath made the badges in such many variations, for example maker marks, pins, crowns, backplates etc. I live quite near to the town where the Poellath factory is still in bussines, unfortunately there is no more records or information available.

In any case, the same class of the same model Order with swords but without crown (so = applied to all 1914-18 "X" awards of any M1913 3rd or 4th class) had to be physically returned to the Orders Chancery before one with swords AND crown was actually sent to a recipient.

This is not true. If an officer had won the MVO knights cross 1st or 2nd class w X in the Colonial wars (China, Soutwest-Africa) and won the MVO w crown and X he was permitted according to the regulations to wear them both on one medal bar (see medal bar of Maj Rohe!).

How would you explain, that an officer who had won the MVO 4th class X and and afterwords -as his rank did not make it possible to award the MVO 3rd class- won the 4th class w CROWN and X and had NO OTHER medals than the Iron Cross and the Bulgarian medal? This is 99.9 % impossible and makes clear, that the ribbon stands for the MVK 2nd w crown X.

There is no proof for the theory that officer's ribbon devices were made of silver. One can find them, but silver or alloy was just the decision to spent more or less money, as all the field bars were custom made and had to be paid by the buyer, there is also no state or governmental regulation about device materials in this case.

2) Bavarian MVO 4th w/ crown and swords, EK2, Bulgarian Balkan Wars Commemorative Medal 1912-13??

No, cannot be an MVO! It has to be the Bavarian Military Merit Cross 2nd class w crown and swords, and there is a clear explanation for this fact: If it was the MVO 4th another ribbon for an MVO has to be on the bar or there has to be more ribbons for other medals/orders on the field bar. There was not one officer who just had the 4th class MVO w crown and swords.

# 2: 1st ribbon is a for a Bavarian Military Merit CROSS 2nd class w crown and swords, the 2 others are correct. Was from an NCO, not an officer.

I am aware there are many variations. Some may not however be real. Could you please elaborate on What you consider real and why. To my understanding the same style back plate on this has been used on a number of reproduced Juncker badges. I understand that some Meybauer and some * marked badges have this back, but I do not believe it correct for Juncker or Poellath badges.

Dan Murphy

Even on old Poellath items one can find different backplates -plain as well as the one shown in the pictures. Also the crowns are different, the spelling of the name Poellath, the given name can be Karl or Carl. Poellath used different silver marks, pins and materials (brass, silver). I know there is a lot of well made fakes on the market. I have bought a lot of pieces from the family over 2 decades and I saw all these variations.

Sal,

A WW1 Bavarian should have a "crown well" like this one. This one is mine.

I am sorry, this is not true. There are many variations of this badge and also of the crown!

@ Wartime Collectables

I had about 25 original items over the years. Yours is OK (same type is in my collection).

Old and original item.

Of course YOU don't think it was a waste of time Willi... it was not YOU that just spent over an hour of time attempting to answer a question YOU already knew the answer too?

Not the least bit polite sir. Not in the least.

It was neither you sir.

What's this guy's target?

I asked the seller whether he would guarantee that it is an original medal. Hes answer was: No, I don't!!!

Ah! So you ALREADY knew who this bar belonged to, and this was merely an exercise in yanking our chains and wasting anyone's time who replied, NOT "asking for help" but trying on the old Trick Question Act?---

Thanks for clarifying that!

Won't happen again.

NOT the way gentlemen behave.

I do not think it was a waste of time.

One would need better pictures of the medal.

As far as I know this medal was NOT awarded to men!