Bob Coleman

THE SPORT SHIRT DIAMONDS APPEAR TO BE SLIGHTLY LARGER THAN THE BDM SLEEVE INSIGNIA.

COULD BE THE SAME SIZE. POSSIBLY, THE SMALLER VERSION WAS ALSO USED ON THE ATHLETIC SHIRTS AT TIME.

ONE THING FOR CERTAIN WITH 3RD REICH MATERIAL IS THAT NOT EVERYTHING WAS DONE ACCORDING TO REGULATION.

Colin-

Thank you for posting this rare set. This is the first time for me to see either the badge or the document.

Bob

your article is the sleeve insignia for the BDM jacket. The items for the pennants and sports shirts are of a different size and construction.

Write to the US archives, Military Records Division, in College Park Maryland. They should have his SS records. If you have his SS number or any other information include it in the letter. I know they have SS service records because I obtained some when I was there. Good Luck.

THANKS FOR THE TIP! I WILL DO THAT.

BOB

I AM LOOKING FOR INFORMATION ON A WAFFEN SS OFFICER, ARTUR OMLOR. HE WAS LIKELY AUSTRIAN AND A JUNIOR GRADE OFFICER. ALSO A PROBABLE KIA.

THANKS IN ADVANCE,

BOB

In my collection, I have a gray open collar tunic that belonged to a Gruppenfuhrer of Allgemeine SS and likely also was a General of Polizei. The name tag was removed many years ago. However, I do have the following clues. He was a holder of the Gold Party Badge and wore the Aloterkampfer winkel. The tunic has loops for the GPB and four other breast badges. There are also loops for a long ribbon bar hinting that the man had a military background. The tunic bears the 1942 pattern insignia. Of what may be the best clue, the tunic was tailored in Regensburg. From the size of the tunic, it is evident the owner was of medium height likely 5'-6 to 5'-8". Any help would be appreciated.

Bob

Nice helmet. I had one like this many years ago in the first collection. I also had a RLB helmet in gray finish of the same model.

Bob, I found the same thing in the file for a 73,xxx range party member from Thuringia whose pair of GPBs and Thuringen Ehren Adler I bought back in the happy days of Ebay. He had a propensity for loosing his badges and kept ordering new ones through the Gau Thuringen Treasurer's Office.

So Kunstmann's tunic was originally configured to take the large GPB with a brooch pin, then the slot was added for the stud configuration. Great information.

I find it interesting that the S A Sportabzeichen takes presidence in wear over a wound badge! Both of Kunstmann's tunics have the loops for the horizontal pin. The tunic with cellulon & bullion insignia has the reinforced stitched round hole for the4 stud badge while the tunic with the metal insignia on the collar tabs has a horizontal slit to accomidate the hole mounting pin. I hopt to see you at the SOS!

Bob

Joe-

I was able to finally find a file on Kunstmann. Stan also has a copy. Kunstmann was NSDAP member #13,155. However, due to the fact that he dropped his membership for a period of time, he was not eligible for the numbered GPB. The file led to two interesting facts. He never was awarded the EK I. The top badge he wore was actually the S A Sportsabzeichen in bronze. The lower badge worn was a black wound badge from the First World War.

I also discovered that he had sent two sets of his GPB's back to have the pins removed and studs attached. The paper work indicates that all matters dealing with the GPB were handled through the Gau level offices of the NSDAP.

Bob

I get the camera out this weekend Stan. I have posted already on another thread.

I am curious about Bob's tunic pictured and the DAF tunic mentioned. I can not judge the size as there is not reference in the photo, but what is the distance between the two loops? My 30mm GPB has a brooch style pin that would require a maximum of 15-18mm distance between the loops.

Joe-

The space is 18mm. Kunstmann evidently had problems with the "flopiness" in wear of the horizontal pin. That is why he utilized the stud back on his dress tunic and a horizontal slit on his service tunic. Both manners of mounting allowed the badge to be worn flat against the tunic pocket. In the case of the pin back badge, he wore the entire pin mounting inside of the pocket.

Bob

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE INFORMATION. IT APPEARS THIS HELMET SPENT SOME TIME IN AFRICA, WHICH WOULD MAKE SENSE WITH THE TAN BASE TO THE CAMOFLAGE.

bOB

I have a double decal army camoflage helmet in the collection that has the following written in to the skirt of it "Obergefr. A. Wittmaack" and the Fledpost #38655. Can you identify this man's unit and is there a way to research the man?

Bob

Kevin-

A fascinating bit of information to accompany the history of this helmet. Many collectors have no idea what a large and diverse compound comprised the overall Dachau facility. Although I was aware of much of what you wrote, there were a few new historical facts I learned to day. Great piece of research.

Bob

THE REGULATION MENTIONED IN ANGOLIA IN NO WAY IMPLIES THAT PRINTED VERSIONS WERE BEING MADE. SIMPLY, IT STATES THAT PRINTED VERSIONS ARE NOT TO BE PRODUCED. IF PRINTED VERSIONS HAD BEEN PRODUCED, IN THE PAST 61 YEARS, BEING A MASS PRODUCED ITEM, CERTAINLY ONES WOULD HAVE APPEARED IN THE SOUVENIRS OF VETERANS OR AMONG THE ARTIFACTS LEFT OVER BY A FORMER MEMBER OF THE HITLER YOUTH. SS ARMBANDS WERE ALSO NEVER PRODUCED IN A PRINTED VERSION. I WOULD ALSO EXPECT SOME OF THESE ARMBANDS TO STILL RETAIN A PROPER RZM TAG. THE CONCEPT OF "I THINK" IS NOT AN ACCEPTED MANNER OF HISTORICALLY CATALOGING AN ITEM.

AFTER 41 YEARS, I WOULD CHALLENGE ANYONE TO REMEMBER IN DETAIL MINUTE FEATURES OF CLOTHING THEY WORE AT THE TIME. MEMORIES CAN FADE. CONFUSION CAN ARISE DUE TO THE PASSAGE OF TIME. WAS THE MEMORY OF A PRINTED ARMBAND ACTUALLY THAT OF A VOLKSTURM ARMBAND? HOW WAS THE ORIGINAL QUESTION ASKED? wAS IT LEADING?

WHEN AN ESTABLISHED, RECOGINISED AUTHORITY OR COLLECTOR CAN PROVIDE A PRINTED HJ ARMBAND THAT HAS PROVENANCE EITHER TO THE ORIGINAL OWNER OR A VETERAN WHO BROUGHT IT BACK AMONG HIS SOUVENIRS, CREEDANCE CAN BE GIVEN TO THE PERIOD EXISTANCE OF SUCH AN ITEM. THIS FORUM IS A PLACE TO STUDY ESTABLISHED FACT. EDUCATED GUESSES DO NOT FIT IN TO THAT CRITERIA.

AT THIS POINT, I WILL SAY NO MORE ON THIS SUBJECT AS IT HAS ALREADY CONSUMED MORE SPACE THAN IT IS WORTH.

BOB

XEN-

THE PROOF IS IN WHAT HAS BEEN OBSERVED IN FIFTY YEARS OF COLLECTING-AN ERA IN WHICH MUCH ORIGINAL MATERIAL COULD BE DIRECTLY AQUIRED, VIEWED AT SHOWS, SEEN IN OTHER COLLECTIONS. AN ERA WHEN THERE WAS AN ABUNDANCE OF MATERIAL AND FEW BUYERS. AN ERA WHEN REAL HANDS ON EXPERIENCE WAS VALUED. TODAY, EVERYTHING I HEAR FROM YOUNGER COLLECTORS IS "PROVE IT" OR "DISPROVE IT." WHAT IS YOUR LEVEL OF EXPERIENCE? JUSTIFY YOUR POSITION. THAT IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT. QUOTING WHAT YOU HAVE FROM JOHN ANGOLIA'S BOOK LEAVES ONY THE WORDING UP TO INTERPRETATION. WITH AS COMMON AN ITEM THE HJ ARMBAND IS, BY NOW, CERTAINLY MULTIPLE COPIES WOULD HAVE APPEARED. PRINTED ARMBANDS ARE A WARTIME EXPEDIANT WHEN IT CAME TO THE POLITICAL ORGANIZATIONS. WHERE ARE ALL OF THESE SUPPOSED PERIOD PRINTED HJ ARMBANDS THAT WERE BANNED? WE KNOW THE GERMANS NEVER THREW ANYTHING OUT THAT MIGHT HAVE FUTURE USE.

BY THE WAY, I AM NOT SHOUTING . THIS IS THE WAY I WRITE SO MY OLD EYES CAN SEE THE LARGER LETTERS. SHOUTING IS SOMETHING I DO WITH MY VOCAL CHORDS, NOT MY FINGERS.

BOB

With respect Bob, you've stated your opinion but haven't addressed the point I raised about the regulation mentioned by Angolia. Banning something implies that it existed. It doesn't HAVE to mean that but it CAN. This introduces doubt into the assumption that a printed armband is always bad. As you know, in the early un-regulated days of the HJ some items (including the armbands) were home-made.

BANNING DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY WERE EVER MADE OR EXISTED. ANGOLIA'S BOOKS ARE FULL OF FAKES, PUT TOGETHERS AND BAD INFORMATION. I WILL TAKE MY FIFTY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE OVER YOUR POSITION ANYDAY. YOU FIRST HAVE TO SUBSTANTIATE PRINTED ARMBANDS WERE MADE. NO SUCH PROOF HAS EVER BEEN FORTHCOMING. THE REGULATION YOU CITED ONLY STATES THEY CANNOT BE MADE-NOT THAT THEY WERE MADE AND PRODUCTION SHOULD CEASE. IF YOU WISH TO BELIEVE YOUR PIECE IS ORIGINAL, DO SO.

BOB

An awesome helmet Cody. I never tire of seeing that one.

CODY-

A GREAT PIECE!! EXCELLENT CONDITION, PROVENANCE AND HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE. HAVE YOU RESEARCHED THE OWNER? ALTHOUGH SOME WILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE PROVENANCE, STRONGLY

FEEL THE FACTS AND ARTIFACTS OF THE HOLOCAUST REQUIRE HISTORICAL PRESERVATION. THE CONFERENCE BEING HOSTED IN IRAN IS THE LATEST ATTEMPT TO REWRITE HISTORY. TO BELIEVE THEIR POSITION IS TO BELIEVE THAT IN THE CLOSING PHASES OF A WAR THAT WAS STILL TO BE WON, THE ALLIES PUT TREMENDOUS RESOURCES IN TO CREATING THE GREATEST CHARADE IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. IT ALSO DENIES THE EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY OF THOSE WHO WERE THERE-ALLIED AND GERMAN.

IT ALSO DENIES THE TESTIMONY BROUGHT FORWARD IN THE SUBSEQUENT WAR CRIMES TRIALS. THE DENIERS NEVER ANSWER THE QUESTION OF WHAT HAPPENED TO 11 MILLION PEOPLE.

BACK ON TRACK, A WONDERFUL ADDITION TO YOUR COLLECTION.

BOB

Hi, I have a printed armband and was initially sceptical about them. Angolia says that printed armbands were banned by regulations. For me this can be interpreted as an attempt to ban further production of the printed version i.e. they did exist and were then banned. Why ban something that doesn't exist? Yes, there is a flaw in my reasoning in that I wasn't there during the TR to see printed versions being worn but we know that there are printed armbands around that pass the tests. And they're cheaper because no-one wants them

PRINTED HJ ARMBANDS ARE CHEAPER BECAUSE THEY ARE REPRODUCTION. THEY FIRST BEGAN TO APPEAR IN THE MID 60'S ALONG WITH PRINTED VARIATIONS OF FOREIGN HJ UNITS. HJ ARMBANDS ARE A VERY COMMON ITEM. IN MY EXPERIENCE OF FIFTY YEARS OF COLLECTING, I HAVE NEVER ENCOUNTERED ONE THAT HAD ANY PROVENANCE. I ALSO HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE THAT I BELIEVED TO BE CORRECT.

BOB

CODY-

GREAT HELMET! ALTHOUGH THE SA GLADIATOR HELMETS ARE MORE PLENTIFUL, THE COMBAT STYLE HELMETS ARE VERY RARE. AS MOST SA MEN WERE NOT FULL TIME, I DOUBT IF THIS HELMET WAS EVER INTENDED FOR THE STANDARD RANK AND FILE. MOST LIKELY, THESE HELMETS WERE UTILIZED BY HEADQUARTERS GUARDS AND POSSIBLY HONOR GUARDSDURING THE WAR YEARS.

BOB

These tabs would only fool a rank amateur. The embroidery work is nothing like the original tabs. Further, the swastika on originals is static and not rotating. Very poor quality reproductions.

These are intended for the inexperienced and uninformed. Anyone who has studied 3rd Reich insignia would recognise the poor quality workmanship of these pieces. Very interesting to see what is out there.

Hello Billy,

Nice! Tom, though, and I had discussed these painted handled daggers and he, at least at the time, felt they were done by NSKK members. This was, perhaps, 6 years ago or so--I wonder if he's changed his opinion?

Erich

Erich-

Mydagger has a painted handle(most of which is now worn off), has a blue/black anodized scabbard and is a factory refinished Roehm dagger. That makes it quite early and most likely not NSKK.

Bob

Toby-

I have never encountered a printed HJ armband. I also find the AHS stamp to be quite spurious. The combination of stamps also does not make any sense. Personaly, I would not want this piece in my collection.

Pat-

Your information is correct. For more examples, may I suggest picking up a copy of the soon to be released reference book on the uniforms, headgear, flags and insignia of the political organizations. The author is Jeff Clark and it is being published by Schiffer. It is my understanding that it will become available late this year.

There was a large grouping of the brown cufftitles vet purchased about five years ago. Bill Shea bought a number of them and may still have them listed on his site.

No problem with your cufftitle. 100% correct. These came in both brown and black fields. I have a hand embroidered example with silver piping on the edges for a high ranking official. It is attached to a reiter style tunic and presently in storage as I am moving.

Good piece!