Robin Lumsden

Now that's a coincidence....

I'll just wait to see if a third one turns up, now that he's committed himself to finding only two.............

For what it's worth, I've been in touch with the seller and he says that he obtained 2 of these badges from the same house clearance.

Gilles.

I may have to eat my words!

Herr Fuchs has another one on eBay today!

Pictures are attached here.............posts 20, 21 and 22.

I am now having doubts!

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359796&page=2

....... - in a rather short time, after Detlev Niemann opened Pandora's box when he showed both sides of his patches.........

I see your point here. It made me a bit skeptical too, when deciding whether or not to bid for it.

However, once I had the badge in hand it was clear that it was made long before Detlev published these photos.

It is certainly a VERY old badge, with a lot of 'natural' age.

Robin,

Sorry for the bad pun, Mr Fox is Heiko Fuchs.

Maybe it is some kind of over-cautious reaction from me. It always gives collectors a headache when the same extremly rare & non regulation item appears suddenly several times - in a rather short time, after Detlev Niemann opened Pandorra's box when he showed both sides of his patches- and in a close geographic range. The text to the first sell on Ebay (as a patch of WWI "Nebeltruppe") sounded pretty much like deception and made me very suspicious from the beginning.

But as any human being, I may be wrong.

Regards

Gilles

Thanks Gilles.

I should have twigged that Fox = Fuchs.

I didn't see the 'Nebeltruppe' auction.............must have missed that one.

Robin, as soon as I get the photo back I'll post it.

Thanks Thomas. :beer:

If I remember properly, this badge was first offered on Ebay as a patch of the "Nebeltruppe". Another one (or the very same?) was then sold by Mr Fox. And a Berlin dealer was proposing one at the Preussische Militariab?rse on June 6th. This new patch doesn't seem to have been a one of a kind production.

I am very sorry, but I have to tell you about my deep doubts regarding the authenticity of the patch.

regards

Gilles

Thanks Gilles.

I don't know who Mr. Fox is.

Do you know what the Berlin dealer was labelling the badge, and how much he was asking for it?

I've never seen one like it before, so it's still a mystery to me.

I can assure you, I also had my doubts when I bought it, but I took a chance and once I had the badge in hand I had no doubts about it's originality...........whatever it is. If I thought it was fake, it would be in the bin now.

I am still hoping that Thomas might be able to produce the photo with the possible black skull in wear, when it is returned from his publishers.

Thanks again Gilles for this information.

A short, but enlightening clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KVHLjnP_UA

Versailles was to blame for unemployment! :jumping:

After Leigh's comments about changes in uniform - this is what a policeman used to look like....

We were still wearing the good old tunics in 2002..............at least, for photo shoots. :rolleyes:

Thought I should post this: The death book of the German flamethrower regiment, downloadable for $3.00:

http://www.lulu.com/content/e-book/totenbu...werfer)/2519204

It's a great reference, with speeches given at the ceremony dedicating the memorial for the regiment, photos, and the names of all 890 flamethrower pioneers who died in the war, their ranks, and the date and place of their deaths.

Thanks, Thomas. :cheers:

I found this at the Bundesarchiv site................caption says it's a (British?) tank, destroyed by German flamethrower action.

(1. Weltkrieg 1914-1918, Westfront, durch deutsche Panzerabwehr mit Flammenwerfer vernichteter (britischer?) Tank; die Besatzung ist erstickt und verbrannt.)

Robin, when I get my photos back from my publisher, I'll post a scan of the flamethrower pioneer wearing the very dark Totenkopf. You can see his hand on the shoulder of another man on right of this image.

I wish I'd scanned the whole image. It didn't occur to me that there might be a black Totenkopf sleeve badge. I thought it was just very dark gray.

Many thanks, Thomas.

That would be great! :cheers:

Robin, I've learned through my research to never say never. Just because we've yet to find official documentation of black-skull sleeve badges doesn't mean they weren't issued. And who's to say some unit didn't make up its own badges or decide to modify regulations as it saw fit?

There are my thoughts also.

Now I'll just have to be patient until a photo of the black TK in wear turns up.

There must be a photo of it out there, somewhere................ :ninja:

Robin, I've learned through my research to never say never. Just because we've yet to find official documentation of black-skull sleeve badges doesn't mean they weren't issued. And who's to say some unit didn't make up its own badges or decide to modify regulations as it saw fit?

Thanks Thomas. These are my thoughts also.

Now I'll just have to be patient until a photo turns up showing the black TK in wear.

There must be a photo of it out there somewhere.................... :ninja:

Here's the badge in its new home................this shows the relative scale of the thing.

I now (at last) have the black TK in hand and I am 100% sure that it is an original piece....either WW1 or Freikorps.

Whatever it is, the thing is a one-looker.

All the material is typical Imperial and the badge was clearly sewn together 90 years ago, not 90 days ago.

The wear, age, staining, fading, etc. etc. are all consistent with a very old multi-piece badge.

Despite the rough stitching on the reverse, the obverse is extremely neatly done, the stitching being almost invisible from the front.

The skull itself has a padded feel, presumably from the inserted red cloth.

In short, I'm delighted with the badge and it's another good eBay buy.

I still don't have the black cloth TK in hand yet.......... :banger:

As a further aside, the Freikorps Gerth also wore a metal TK on the sleeve................

although some preferred the cuff..............

As a further aside, the Freikorps Gerth also wore a metal TK on the sleeve................

What a great thread this is..................

Thomas. You're very generous with your information and photos. A lot of folks in your position would 'hide' the information until the book comes out.

Kudos to you! :beer:

Here's a closeup of the man in the center. He has a white Totenkopf sleeve badge, which has replaced his wartime version, but he wears it directly under the left elbow instead of on or above the cuff. This identifies him as belonging to the flamethrower platoon of Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr). Note his black pioneer shoulder straps.

Another fine photograph.

I always thought that when members of Rohr's battalion transferred into the flamethrower regiment, they moved their TK badges to the cuff.

Interesting that this man has retained the 'old' under-elbow position, after the war.

What kind of skull is it? Panzer?

No...............it's an Imperial hussar skull of this type.

..........and it's supported by photographs...........

........on this.............

The velvet band on its own would have been pretty questionable................but it came with this........