Robin Lumsden

The question is, can a one off hand made piece stand on its own?

I think so...............at least with FK stuff.

Here's a hand-made (red eyed) TK VELVET cuffband................

............just looking at it through the same microscope I would have if I was buying.

I always use a microscope as well.

It showed that Heiko does quite a bit of advertising in the 'wanted' sections of his local papers.

Might explain how he seems to get a lot of 'out of the woodwork' stuff. (Assuming, of course, that it is out of the woods).

His photos are remarkable, I think.................I've noticed that he regularly comes up with old studio portraits of TK hussars (and the occasional FW trooper) which I've seldom if ever see on the mainstream dealer sites.

Anyway, here's one of his adverts from the 'wanted' columns.....................

He has 9000 militaria things sold and going back 6 pages in his history, EVERYTHING he sells that is not a photo has "Originalst?ck frisch vom Dachboden aus einem Nachlass!". I too have bought from him on many occasions, but think I would take the story of the origin with a pinch of salt.

I agree.

But I have never seen an obvious fake in any of his sales.

He seems to come up with quite a few rarities, including rare photos..................whatever his sources are.

His only non-photo items that week were the skull, the boards and the belt, and it seemed to me that there could be a link between the three items, for the reasons already given.

Anyway, I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest with this patch..............it is what it is, and I just wish the postie would deliver it so I can judge it better 'in hand'.

I'm totally open-minded about the whole thing.

It was almost worth the 60+ Euro to see the info that has been supplied in this thread!

I think the only thing that MIGHT convince me would be to go through the sellers history. Robin, can you provide the link to the auction?

Here you go, Chris.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEAFB:IT

The seller has over 9000 deals, and a 100% feedback rate.

I've had some nice 'out of the woodwork' stuff from him in the past.

Here's an example.....................I've only seen a couple of these Leibhusar veteran's badges in 35 years.

I know that others here have also picked up very nice bits from him................scarce Feldgendarmerie photos, naval cap tallies, etc.

Thanks again, Thomas.

Some great pictures and good information there.

It's clear from the photos that the wartime FW badge continued to be worn post-war, despite the regulations.

Here's another Kokampf badge, for your interest. This one uses the tilted skull.

I have 1915 pattern Pionier Leutnant boards with blue straps

The method of construction looks very similar to me..............esp. the white stitching.

Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about these Imperial-type straps.

The longer this thread goes on, the more confused I get.

More twists and turns than a twisty, turny thing.

Have a look at the Parade of the Kavallerie vets in 1937 - lots of pre 1910 uniforms are worn with their old rank and unit destination. I believe that a lot of the oddities we see are from that era

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1M4V-y7cIc

Thanks again for all this additional information.

And I would say they are the early greatcoat straps that have been doctored. Come on, blue backing on the 1915 front color of black? And that big fat red piping? I would not take them if they were given to me.

That doesn't sound too good!

I was going to post a photo I have of a wartime flamethrower pioneer wearing what looks like an almost-black death's head sleeve badge............

Can't wait for the book...................so I can see that photo!

Thanks Thomas for that excellent information and the great photos.

The Heuschkel one, in particular, is very interesting as it shows an 'unofficial' version of the FW sleeve TK, being worn 'officially' by an ex-FW man serving in a post-war Minenwerfer unit.

I think that further strengthens the connection between the skull and (Freikorps) Minenwerfer troops..................and so between the skull patch I found and the Minenwerfer boards which I think came from the same source.

I can imagine that Heuschkel cuff TK turning up today.................and people crying 'fake'.

If only I could find a photo of one of these skulls in black being worn.

I intend posting my thoughts (good or bad) on the black skull once I have it in hand. However, my internet connection is being transferred over the next fortnight so, depending on when the skull arrives, there might be a slight delay.

Thanks again Thomas.

Here's an interesting discussion......................re. the guy marked with the 'x'.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=88181

This bit might be relevant to the odd TK......................

".............German flame thrower operators were only allowed to wear the Totenkopf sleeve badge for the duration of the war. When they joined the Reichswehr or Freikorps, most former Flammenwerfer-Pioniere took the badges off, although some substituted generic "Prussian"-style death's heads.

This is a blow-up of a postcard that shows a former Totenkopf-Pionier NCO as a member of a Freikorps unit. Note the white Totenkopf badge on his lower left sleeve, a replacement for the regulation gray death's head of the flame thrower regiment............."

Enhancing the photo one can see that the skull area has darkened while the outer edge is lighter.

interesting stuff

That IS interesting.

Also, there is a tenuous connection between MW troops and the death's head.

The Heuschkel MW unit used the TK during 1919-1920 (photo below).

Maybe the cloth badge dates from that period.

Who knows?

Why with MW boards ??

Do you have a link to the auction?

Hello Chris.

To some extent, it's supposition on my part that the TK, the MW boards and the belt all came from the same source.

The seller had many other things, but these three were all marked as having 'come from a house clearance'.

The auction closed yesterday, so the link has gone.

It's true what you say about these things being easy to fake, but I can't understand why someone wanting to fake a GP-type skull would do it in the wrong colours.

To my mind, they'd fake it using a grey skull with black eyes, not a black skull with red eyes. Still, anything is possible.

I have made a bit of a study of TKs over the years (yes.............sad but true), and there are several known period examples of skulls with red eyes. The interesting part with these is that they are almost always 'unofficial', with the wearer placing red cloth behind the eyes. Wehrwolf collar patch skulls (as below) are good examples. The only 'official' red-eyed TK that I can think of is the mess dress badge for the SS tuxedo.

I don't have the thing in hand yet, but I thought the chance was worth taking with this one.

The materials and construction look period to me, but photos can be problematic.

Time will tell.

Robin, it is possible for you to make a good close up of the buckle please (back and fron) ? Thanks

Hello Christophe.

Sorry..................that's the only photo I have.

The belt was sold yesterday (I didn't buy it) so the photos have now disappeared from the auction.

Rule Number 1 of Skullduggery (pardon the pun) is that fakers don't do one-offs. OK, if every eCrap auction suddenly has identical (hand made making that rather difficult, anyway) pieces THEN eez no good.

The material looks good to me. And as an Officer Deputy he would have had tailor-made items rather than issued enlisted stuff, given any choice in the matter.

That was my gut feeling as well.................hence taking the chance.

There were several variations of these badges, as the attached photos show. Different shapes of background cloth, different skull shapes, shades, etc. There were also bullion versions for officers.

Anyway, the thing cost less than an EK2, so it must be worth the gamble.

Another fake.................

They've been faking them for ages..................

And the other.............

Here's one of the known originals..................

This one is blatantly wrong, as far as in comparison to known originals.

That was my concern as well.

But why reproduce something in the wrong colours?

Given the seller, and the other items accompanying this, I took the chance.

We'll see what it's like when it arrives.

Officer's belt would have gone with that rank as part of the Hybrid Being gear. Sounds like all one source.

Thanks again, Rick.

That's good news.

A photo of the belt is shown below.

I got the skull for less than I was prepared to pay.................a LOT less. :jumping:

Thanks very much, Rick.

I'm obliged.

I saw the straps and skull on eBay.................both were listed (separately) as having come from a house clearance, both from the same seller, so I put two and two together. There was an officer's belt as well.

I got the skull, but someone else got the straps.

In 1917, the Minenwerfer Bataillon XIII was fighting together with a Sturmbataillon and Flammenwerfertrupps at the Hartmannsweilerkopf.

November 10, 1917

"Ein weiteres gro?es, neues Unternehmen auf der Kuppe startet vom LIR 124. Vier Sto?trupps

von 4 Offizieren 120 Mann mit 38 Mann vom Sturmbataillon XVI, 18 Pioniere und 8

Flammenwerfer werden eingesetzt. Die gr?ndliche Ausbildung am ?bungswerk Ollweiler

sollte jetzt Erfolg zeigen. Zerst?rungsschie?en durch das Minenwerferbataillon XIII und

3 Batterien Artillerie hielt den Feind nieder. "

Thanks again!

Robin, the straps are for an Offizierstellvertreter belonging to the Minenwerfer Bataillon XIII

Thanks.

They were listed as 'Minenwerfer Abteilung des XIII. Armeekorps' (???)

I'm not really that acqainted with Imperial army formations.

It's really the TK I'm interested in. It's an oddity.