Gaffken

Hi Dan,

Nice Caucasus service medal! There seem to be a host of different versions of them (incl. the one you posted above months earlier)--I just wish I knew the difference between them all.

Btw, you keep using the word 'Umalatova'...what exactly does that mean for us neophytes?

Gaffken

- do you know the recipient ( i.e. the man with the bad hand writing) of this beautiful and rare Halbmond?

Alas Hardy, I don't. As unbelievable as it may sound, there was no indication when I bought the piece that there was *any* attribution or inscription on the back of the carton, so you can imagine my amazement (and bewilderment once I tried reading the handwriting) when I turned the carton over to discover the scribbling.

Separately, my only thought would be to possibly trace the recipient by award bestowal date, though 1), I'm not sure if this is possible with an Ottoman award from traditional Rangliste (Tim? Rick?), and 2), I'm not really sure if '12/25/15' is an award date so much as it's the date it was gifted to the recipient by Zeki. (so much for all you guys who thought the Ottomans didn't celebrate X-mas, eh? ) I guess it simply comes down to how one might interpret the use of 'geschenkt' and 'verliehen' in this instance.

This piece is just so chocked full of unknowns that I'm not sure what to expect next! (--any/all help appreciated though!)

Gaffken

Guys,

Unfortunately, I'm a little limited in attaching bigger scans due to my 'probie' status, but I'll do the best I can with the small space that I'm afforded, so here are a couple of scans that I hope you'll like:

Center closeup:

Obverse:

Full reverse:

Thanks once again, guys--I'd take you along on a Egyptian hieroglyphics trip anytime!

Well, with the mystery solved, here's what was inside the box (in case you were curious...)

(the only one by this maker I've ever seen, though I wouldn't mind seeing another, if anybody has one!)

Gaffken

Dave, Hardy,

Thanks guys--that's fabulous! I understand German well enough, but I've been scratching my head over what this might spell out for several years now, having shown it to a bunch of folks who were equally stumped. I have to admit that my knowledge of the Ottoman forces is also almost non-existent, so I especially appreciate the info on Zeki--thanks Dave! That's great attribution!

As for the other unintelligible words, I always suspected the 2nd word in the 3rd line might be something like 'angeben', while the 1st word in the last line might be a location, but it's still anyone's guess. If anyone else has any thoughts, I'd of course appreciate any help...

Gaffken

there is another related topic recently in connection with repro copies of this award but i am darned if I can find it

I remember replying to that one, too...was it removed?

I think this thread was also the one that had the rare photo of one in actual wear, if I'm correct.

Gaffken

Guys,

I think I may have posted this before, but can anyone decipher what's scribbled here?

Many thanks,

Gaffken

Guys--many thanks, as always. I've been trying to decipher the obvious (visible) distinctions between the 3rd and 4th classes for some years now, but from what you all indicate, it now seems that telling a true 3rd class from a fake may require either really great & detailed scans, or having to hold the item in your very hands (sometimes not so easy to accomplish!).

Seems like a very tough nut to crack...

So, ok--I'll go ahead and jump in with my typical dumb-question-of-the-thread intervention, but how exactly are a 3rd and 4th class MVO differentiated from each other then? The examples I've seen look almost identical in detail, except for the fact that one is silver, while the other is gold; is the latter only produced in real gold (ie, not gilt) perhaps?

Ever clueless but curious,

Gaffken

And lastly, as Stogie pointed out, the large A4 Urkunde to the same man in the second to last post above.

Next, the advertisement showing--as Kevin pointed out--the nominal cost of DM 6,75, marked by the checkmark in the lower right margin:

(sorry for the small size--I couldn't scale it larger to fit here)

Next, the letter from the dealer:

Mine came boxed (just like the previous example), and has the double wire pin. Unfortunately, I don't have the miniature, but do have the documents (sorry to take this off-topic, but thought you might like to see them):

First, the letter from Gen-Maj Puder:

Peter,

I'll be the first to admit that I don't own one of these either and am thus no expert, but after seeing many a good pilot badge, I'm struck odd by the high placement of the pin on this badge, along with the pin 'well'. Seems very high and off the mark to me, though it appears consistent with the rest of the badge being struck off-center. My concern would thus lay in whether this would have legitimately passed a quality control test by the maker during the period if it were real--maybe someone else here would know better on that one (?).

As far as details of the tank pictorial on the obverse, I've become accustomed to looking for certain facets that appear lacking here, including details of faces on the skulls under the tank's treads, and a viewport often seen in the center of the pilot house on top of the tank. Just some observations...

Hope this helps,

Gaffken

Guys--beautiful eagles; your examples really capture the wide variety of variations out there.

Dan--to echo Rick's comments, I like your hinge, too--very distinctive, and not something a faker would obviously go to lengths to accomplish.

Last year, I passed up an opportunity to purchase a 1st class with swords and oakleaves, and now I'm kind of kicking my self for doing so after viewing all of the nice examples here. Maybe subconsciously I was holding out for the mythical version with oakleaves, swords and diamonds...I'll never be quite sure!

Gaffken

Hi WC--

Another fine cross; should we take the multi-piece construction and latch on yours to be standard features? I've seen a few crosses like Dante's before, so I wasn't sure what to think (?)

Gaffken

Beautiful cross Wild Card! Not only is it the first ladies version I've seen in quite some time, but it's also easy to see the humanitarian and 'Red Cross roots' from your's, most evident in the rich enamel work. (I don't think I've seen one quite that vibrant before!)

Gaffken

Thanks guys--that's great info; it almost appears to be a rough equivalent to the Prussian Cross for Ladies and Young Women from the same timeframe, if I had to venture a quick guess.

Much appreciated!

Gaffken

Gents--Could anyone enlighten me on the above? I've been doing simple searches, but can't seem to bring up anything on it...

Many thanks,

Gaffken

Gents--my first (very recent) foray into Yugoslav awards: a '5-torch' 3rd class star...

Gaffken

Well, I stand corrected--there are two rivets on the reverse of mine afterall.

(Steve: sorry for taking so long to post-back!)

Gaffken

Thanks Steve--I'll try and get a photo of the reverse posted for you. From your info, I think mine might be a '57 version now, as I don't recall any visible attachments (rivets, prongs) poking thru on the backside.

Nevertheless, I'm not too knowledgeable about Weimar-era stuff, so I appreciate the quick tutorial!

Gaffken

No one's posted a screwback yet...are these kosher?

I?m a little hesitant to get into this discussion, but to dovetail on Dave?s remarks, it also appears relatively clear that the position of the EKI in both photos is different, which, if taken together with the different position of the flight badge(s), suggests to me that we?re looking at two different tunics. I won?t get into the discussion on the veracity of the flight badges themselves, but having spent 10-12 yrs working in the military, I can honestly say that no officer or soldier has just one tunic or blouse, especially when he?s in the field. In fact, a friend of mine recently commented that he had *sixteen* pairs of old BDUs that were now useless with the recent change in US camouflage, which also meant that a great number of them had matching insignia, rank tabs, and unit patches, possibly all in slightly and minutely different locations. Granted, not all officers have 16, but they usually have more than one, with identical accoutrements.

Consequently, what leads me to believe that we have a two-tunic issue is the position of the EKI in post #32, which is clearly centered in the middle of the innermost ?slat? of his pocket, compared to the positioning of the same in post #34 (ie, from the large group shot), where the EKI is positioned further in, with the pin centered right on the edge of the ?bellows? of the pocket (ie, at the far right of the aforementioned innermost slat, not the middle)?you can just make out the edge of the bellows bisecting the EKI in the photo, despite the pixilation. Taken with the differing position of the flight badges that Dave pointed out, I?d say this speaks to a different set of sewn loops, suggesting another tunic (I?ll leave it up to you guys to decide on whether he had another set of badges for them).

Believe me, if this guy was really wearing the only tunic he had in the field, I?d be standing on the far edge of whatever group photo I was ever in with him! (phew!)

Just some observations,

Gaffken

Hi Dan,

The first recipient would be 'Pavlov, Sergei Nikolayevich' and the second [to the Ushakov medal, that is] would be 'Petrov, Igor Danilovich'.

(assuming my eyes aren't fooling me)

Great docs!

Gaffken