Alpha Draconis

Hello Nick

There were many producers of this medal, mostly from Wien. It is believed that about 200 000 pieces were made, and none of them bears any hallmark...

Some believe that the loop version is older than the other one. There is a ball suspension version as well.

Best regards

Joseph

Hello KimKan

I believe that those letters are "R.A." not "G.A.". Anyway on the initial photo the maker is most probably "G.D.", but never mind since you don't have that order any more. Chinese order of double dragon is known to be made by Russian jewelers!

Best regards

Joseph

Enzo, I need to visit Firenze with my father too

But I doubt I'll be that lucky!!

Best regards

Joseph

Beautiful chain Enzo

Serbia, Japan, Russia, all civil, this must belong to Austrian Ambassador!

Trooper D, The "plain chain" is in the back of the uniform or suit so it doesn't need to be fancy.:)

Best regards

Joseph

Hello Gents

Here is another, I believe better photo of the mark, it is definitely a 3 Chamois without a letter A.

Does it mean it is most probably Gebrueder Resch 1867-1872 Order like Thomas said?

Elmar, thank you for clearing out the Roman numeros on the lid, I have suspected this is the case, but it is better to wait for confirmation.

And, why make a mini collars when there ate normal minis of this order? Were there any other collar minis of other Austrian orders like Iron Crown or Leopold? Of course the Golden Fleece had collar minis....

Best regards

Joseph

Hello Tifes

Thank you for the elaborate answer. I'm sorry about the photos of the mark, they are faint, I'll try to take a new photo at different angle. 

I taught there were more producers of FJO than just two.

Do you know anything of that Roman numeros on the lid, I know that doesn't have any significance for this order, just to resolve my curiosity

Tifes, were there ever the collar of FJO? Maybe for Franz Joseph himself?

Best regards

Joseph

Hello Gents

I have one nice FJO badge and I need your help about few things. I believe it is Grand Cross badge, but I need your confirmation. It measures 6,8 X 3,7 cm, weight 24 g.

Gold acid tested not only 18k, but up to 22k gold, stamp not fully readable but I believe to be a Chamois mark with number 3, but it could be something else with number 2 when I

turn the photo upside down... I've seen no letters on the mark..

Now, is it possible to find a maker and a year, establish the class( I don't think it is commander or Grand commander class because second loop is small, not long ) and one more curiosity?

I had several FJO-s with "secret locker", but none of those had Roman numeros engraved on the "lid". What does these numeros mean? Probably the number of product, or

something like that? Please Gents, check your beauties at home and see if they had numeros as well....

Best regards

Joseph A.D.

Hello Eurorders

Are you sure thay this is black enamels on your st Stas? It looks like dark red enamels on the last set of photos? I believe that on black enamels you can't see the "ribs" under the enamels no matter the angle of the light... I had a few and never saw the gold under the enamels.

I have one miniature with datk red, looks like black, but it's not.

Best regards

Joseph

Nice bravery set!!

Hello Graf

Thank you for your post. I got this order in a lot 3 years, or so, ago and I never knew it's real value, but didn't care because I kept it regardles I'm not a Bulgaria decorations collector, I admired its craftmanship and age. But now the time has come to part with it and I couldn't find anywhere what class this is so I don't lie to potential buyer. And you are right, the market will tell its real value.

Ilieff

That's nice example of crown variations, and no wonder that lots of us are confused with so many different models, but after all, the diversity of them makes collecting even more interesting!

Best regards

Joseph

Hello Gents

Since no one has an opinion on today market value of this order I decided to make an auction on ebay and find out a real value. Gents, you have helped me a lot to determine the class of this badge, so the next happy owner knows what he/she has bought. 

With respect

Joseph

Thanks Ilieff, this one doesn't have any trace of gold, so I assumed that it was originally just silver...

Now Gents, I would like to sell this badge, but I don't know the price of this order, I got it in a big trade several years ago, so I never knew it's real price. What would be aprox. current price for this order?

Any info is welcome!

Regards

Alpha

Hello Ilieff

Thank you for extra effort, you have shown some nice photos.

So, in general, we can conclude that this is 90% Grand Cross and 10% chance to be 1st class Order. Is there a record of how many of Grand Crossrs were bestowed?

One more question for you Gents: does it matter in any way that some of these orders were gilted and some were not in the same period? For example Serbian st Sava order and White eagle order differ from class 4 to class 5 by the gilt.

Best regards

Alpha

Hello Gents

Thank you for your contribution on this topic, it is very interesting indeed.

Graf, your question is in place, but I gave a good dimension, 5,4cm wide, and 6cm diagonally, so it makes it bigger version.

Ilieff, you have a keen eye for details, only when you pointed out that the center medallion is reversed, I have gently corrected the problem

Btw. I forgot to congratulate you on a great site regarding Bulgarian orders! It's great!!

Now for the conclusion, what the New World is asking is question what I started this thread in the first place. Is there an option that majority of those orders are post 1908, thus Grand Cross? I understand what Illieff had said that it is all the same whether the order is Grand Cross post 1908 or 1st class Cross pre 1908 it was the highest st. Alex, except of course Collar decoration!!!

About the Collar badge size I don't know the right dimension, just assumed I have heard it somewhere. Ilieff, dig up this info and update your site regarding Collar decoration info.

Best regards to all of you!

Alpha

Hello Ilieff and Laurentius,

Thank you for your replies and for your knowledge! I assumed that this would be the case with this Order, but I hoped it could be identified by some detail, like manufacturer or because it is not gilded or something else...

I had this beauty some time and I didn't mind that I don't know what class it is, but now is the time for me to part from this order, and I wanted to give a next owner a clear ID on this piece. And it is in great overall condition! I agree with you Laurentius, the details in the crown are amazing!! I had in my hands most of the Imperial Russian, Serbian, Romanian, etc orders, but the manufacture of Bulgarian crown is the most beautiful work of all!!! Here are few closeups of the crown.

One more question for you guys: Does it matter or does it makes any difference if this order is 5,4 cm wide, not 5,5 cm as most of the same class orders? Are all of Rothe orders 5,4 cm wide or they have just spared material on this one?

Btw, what is the size of the Collar of St Alexander badge?? I have heard that it is 6,1 cm wide, but I'm not sure if I'm right.

Best regards

Joseph

Hello Gents

I have a question for you, is this St Alexander badge Grand Cross or 1st class Cross? I know that the Grand Cross was introduced in early 20th century, but I don't know does this one belong to early Order 1st class or later Grand Cross Order? Austrian Rothe manufacture in silver, 5,4cm wide(not 5,5cm) and 10,8cm long without the suspension loop.

Thanks in advance!

Regards, Joseph

Hello KimKan

I believe the first letter to be a "G", and second one could be even a "D", but it's most likely an A.

Can you please post the front side of the order, maybe if you determine aprox year of the order you can determine the maker?

Best regards

Joseph

I was with Barry two weeks ago and he didn't mention anything about this beauty!!!

Outstanding item!! Especially if owned by the king!!

Hello Jonas

Of course you won't melt it, as you said it is a historical item. It shows the collision of two different worlds in old Russia!

It is not lower class order, it's at least second class but it could be even first class. If it was complete the value would be from 10-15k $, this way from 1k up, depending how many collectirs like stars instead of eagles

So, after all, you have made a good purchace

Best regards

Alpha

Hello Jonas

The modification is probably made during revolution as you have said, the hatred toward the Empire stripped the eagles and brought the star..

Regarding the originality of the order it is 100% legit. There were few manufacturers that made booth sides in enamels, French and Russian, this one is Russian made, in gold as you can see on the 56 mark.

If it was complete it would be quite rare and expensive piece!! 

What class it is?

Best regards

Joseph

P.s.

Forgot to mention, the maker is probably Dimitry Osipov...

Best

Alpha

Hello Roman

Thank you for clear things out!! I have never heard of Godet made order, and this one is even more beautiful than the official one!!! Just love the Godet "L"

So, are those 10 Godets also selling for the same price even if they are not bestowed? How many Godets survived if you know?

Kind regards

Thank you Roman for your answer, and thank you even more for showing us the case of this order, which is presumingly even rarer than the order itself!?

Roman, how can we tell the original from a copy? Is there difference other than gold centre? Maybe in weight or something else?

Michael, if I unerstood you correctly, I believe you can't make an old version by removing enamel from new version. The back of the new design is flat and smooth, and back of the old one is bumpy

Nice topic of a such a rare order!

Best regards

Alpha D.

Remarkable item!!

What would be the price of this beauty?

Best regards

Joseph

Hello Nick

I think you should get those 400€ for this lot with no problem. Yes the red robes Sava should be more expensive but the price depends on condition of an item and a luck of a seller

Good luck with the sale

Alpha

Hello Nick

You should expect these prices for these medals on ebay:

King Peter II cross 50-70$

Order of White eagle 300-400$

Order of Yugoslav crown 100-140$

Order of st Sava 100-140$

Obilich bravery medal 50-80$

Of course thesr prices can be lower or higher depending on interest.

Best regards

Joseph