E Williams

Chris, you are correct, the kicker here is the date of the Luger. It's a 1908, 1st army issue. The 14th Reserve Regt was part of the Bav 30th Reserve Div in 1914. Reserve regiments wasn't mobilized until then and at that time. Also, in one of my reference books, "The Imperial German Regimental Markings by Jeff Knoll, page 74, another Luger, same unit, he has described as being, B.14.R.M.G.6. as, Bayerisches Infantry-Regiment 14, Maschinengewehr-Kompany, Waffe Nr.6.

Also, Reserve Infantry units prior to 1914 were usually always designated with the 'R' in script.

Good catch!!!!!! (if I had smilies, I give you a "Cheers".

"B.14.R.M.G.12." (Bavarian 14th Reserve Infantry Regiment, weapon number 12).

Eric

I think there is an error in the description....

I am by no means an expert, but i think this is Bavarian 14th Infantry Regiment, MG Company Weapon 12... not Reserve Regt.

You have a nice piece Eric, hold on to it, wish I could have gone after it but, can't have them all. Clean it and it will come up a bit from what it looks like now.

Beautiful piece Ed

I only learned how to take em apart a couple of weeks ago I'll clean it this is the ad from the auction:

Description: SN 276. 4" 9mm bbl. "DWM" scroll on center toggle link. Two Imperial proofs on left side of receiver. All numbered parts are matching including both orig wood bottom magazines, one magazine having the period mark (276.) indicating it to be the original magazine to the pistol, the other without the period indicating it to be the spare. Serial number 276 making it one of the earliest of this model produced known today. No holdopen added. Front grip strap is unit marked "B.14.R.M.G.12." (Bavarian 14th Reserve Infantry Regiment, weapon number 12). Comes in a brown leather "AWM / 3 / 09" marked holster with orig Imperial proofed takedown tool. Back of holster is stamped "14IR. / 12." (14th Infantry Regiment Weapon number 12). This gun is featured on pgs. 314, 483, 570, 1108, and 1151 of Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess' The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols. This was the earliest complete matching 1908 rig encountered in the research of this book. PROVENANCE: Collection of Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess. CONDITION: Fine retaining about 60% blue with scattered pitting on the gun that is deepest on left side around sideplate and front of bbl. Grip straps are turning to brown. 50% orig straw with scattered corrosion. The bore is bright with light wear. Checkered walnut grips are worn with a few minor dings and indents. Magazines are very good with corrosion on the bodies. Holster is very good with minor scuffs, wrinkles and surface cracking. Takedown tool retains about 70% blue and has scattered light corrosion.

Eric

Where's my manners. Eric, send it all to me , I'll clean it. :)

My most recent acquisition, a 1910 DWM is fine condition, we call Lugers like this in "Orgasmic Condition" all matching including the grips, magazine is not numbered but from the same time era. I was told some time ago that if they were not abused after capture, the best preserved Lugers were staff and medical, although carried in combat, seldom fired and I was not misguided. The blue rates at 98% and the straw at 95%. The bore is shiny with still deep grooves. As you can see it still retains the white chalk outlining DWM from the armory. This normally did not last long because of cleaning would have eventually removed the chalk except where it says 'Gesichert', this was done with white paint. Many collectors re-chalk their Lugers, I do not. This Luger did not receive the upgrade later of the hold open which when the last round is fired, the toggle would not have stayed open.

The front grip strap marking is for the (13.T.S.2.179.) 13th Trains Hospital 2nd Company weapon #179. A medic/stretcher bearer's Luger.

I will post an additional photo once it has been properly displayed.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-16240-0-73808000-1384208768.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-16240-0-54015300-1384208782.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-16240-0-30963500-1384208787.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-16240-0-14836800-1384208807.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-16240-0-29403100-1384208814.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-16240-0-07334400-1384208827.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-16240-0-28444900-1384208837.jpg

Those first issued were ser numbered from 34-4828b. You acquired one the the very first issued and the first contract was Bavarian...pat yourself hard, that dry bank account doesn't mean shite!!!!! Get it cleaned though.

I take all that back, yours does not have the stock lug, meaning it is 1908 1st army issue. The toggles were not date marked. First time toggles were date marked was 1910.

Thanks Ed the tool is proof stamped clean? I'm never going to fire it why clean lol! Question is it normal for early lugers not to have the date stamp?

Eric

Not during the war, after the war, 1920 for example, they called those an "alphabet" Luger. You need to break it down (while you clean it) and check to make sure the ser no#s match.

I'll do some checking but I don't think I'm wrong. There were two times I know of, 1920 and the 1929s that were called 'sneak' Lugers. (making more than the Treaty allowed)

How did the auction advert it?

About time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice complete rig you have there, luger and holster. Is the tool marked also? You're one up on me Eric until I take the photos of the one I just returned with. Right now, I've a line of ladies waiting outside my door that have to be taken care of before I can fondle this Luger.

BTW, yours need a very good cleaning............................

Acquired this fellow today, IR 111, MG................

Mr Williams I am flattered if you think I am 'competition! However Chris, Chip and Eric are the big boys and there are a few key "players" in France and Belgium too.

My 'wish' list of items to find is still worryingly too long :>)

It's good to know who the other interested parties are to exchange Christmas gifts with interesting items...........

Nice thread........I meet another MG competitor.

I have just seen this thread and most enjoyable. Now I know why I have been dreaming about sawing off my first wife's head, anyway drag straps. I have seen quite a few over here in Europe and often the ersatz and cloth examples have a pink stamp, not unlike the pink stamp inside a Brodie helmet. a tell tale sign is also the buckle, all WWI examples have the lengthening buckle inverted ie as a u shape if that makes sense. My leather example has EB stamped deep into the leather, but although in several places, I am not convinced it is a maker but perhaps the owner's initials. The second leather example I have seen had no markings but I can borrow it to photo. So count me in on the box full. One very famous collector in France has many but inevitably he will not part with them. I even offered my current wife but alas....

Mark

My new found friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So it´s Flieger-Abtl. 23 Lb. Set up jan.,11, 1917 from Feldflieger-Abtl.23.

The Lb means "Lichtbild" (Photogarphic unit) The unit stood a long time in Guise (near St. Quentin)

Thanks.....................

Do you have a larger scan please?

To me it looks like an aero or telegraph oval

Sorry, I tried to enlarge it bit, it was worse. It's on Ebay.

Take a look at this photo and look at his arm badge. Looks like a silhouette of a MG but look at the oval. Looks like a home made job if it is a MG background.

If I'm reading it correctly....

Abs. Schuetzen Karl Bernard

15. Res. Armeekorps

39. Res. Inf. Div. 1. Ers. Iftr. Rgt. Bay. Gebirgs. M.G.K.

Very nice photo with a rare unit!

Formations add:

The regiment was set-up at nov., 3rd 1914 from the following units:

b.Brig.Ers.Btl.1 (became I,.Btl.)

b.Brig.Ers.Btl.3 (became II.Btl.)

b.Brig.Ers.Btl.4 (became III.Btl.)

The commanders:

Regiment: Oberst z.D. Kein

I.: Major d.R. Simon

II.: Major z.D. Bauer

III.: Oberstleutnant z.D. Schubert

Casualties: 21 officers, 974 NCOs and enlisted men

Great bit of info to awake to.....thanks............

BTW, by war's end, 1918, the division was down to 200 men, old and tired. It had been rated as a fourth class unit by wars end. A;ll the younger men had been transferred to more active units.

Nicely done. An interesting twist and nice bit of education.

Thanks....now I need a Bavarian Unit marked MG Luger even more.

The unit markings in my book of the M1907 Dreyse is the same unit: I.E.M.G.K.XV.A.K.73................

After closer examination, they do not have Luger holsters, they have 1907 Dreyse holsters, big difference, location of closer tab, location of extra magazine and it's length, the soft flaps that have gave way with hand pressure. Now why a mountain MG unit would have them is another question. The Austrians used them during the war and by 1914, the police of Saxony used them. They were a great pistol. Now, could a PO8 Luger be crammed into a Dreyse holster, maybe. In 1912 the 9 mm Parabellum Dreyse Model 1912 emerged as the gun's successor. Marked as the RM & M Dreyse, it was chambered for 9mm Parabellum. It was 160mm in length and with a 92mm barrel.

The Luger has a 92mm barrel also and an overall length of 222mm so I doubt if there are Lugers under those flaps.

BUT!!!!!! in one of my research books, it shows that Dreyse M1907 were issued to Ersatz MG Kompanies in both XV Korps and the 18th Korps. Now further investigation is so:

The 39th Royal Bavarian Reserve Division was a reserve infantry division of the Imperial German Army in World War I. It was raised to division status on October 2, 1914 from an ad hoc unit, "Brigade von Rekowski", and named "Division von Rekowski". On December 8, 1914 it was renamed the 39th Reserve Division. It was heavily made up of Bavarian units and on December 26, 1916 it was again renamed the 39th Royal Bavarian Reserve Division.

SO!!! at the beginning of the war, it was the 39th Inf Div and that Div was part of the XV Army Corps and they are the same MG unit and later when they were reverted back to the 39th Royal Bavarian Res Div, they still carried their pistol of issue in 1916 as the date of the photo shows, the M1907 Dreyse.

How I love research when it all comes together.....

If that had been advertised with more pertinent information, it would have gone faster. Fortunately for me, it was a "Buy Now" item and not a "Bid Now" item..

$4.50 shipped !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This MG photo is a great example of why collecting these relatively inexpensive items really make the whole collecting experience even better.

Machine Gun

Bavarian

Mountain

the boots

the Luger holsters

Combine this will actual items that you have ... like the Lugers in your collection. It's a great enhancement. Add the research possibilities and it's a great education.

And for those that can't afford the Lugers themselves... These photos let you collect that area... I really think photos and postcards are under appreciated. (Or maybe not considering the recent discussion on prices... )

Out of curiosity, if it's not asking too much inside info, what price range did you snag this photo?

You sitting down???????????????????????????????

Correction... I passed on that one and bought a studio medic photo with Red Cross armband and watching another.