Mike Page

If my brothers and I seem to have a hair trigger on this respect issue ? perhaps it is because we?ve listened to 30 plus years of this crud from people who have no clue.

This thread is merely part of a forum where medals and decorations are discussed...so it's only natural that the criteria for said awards may be discussed.

Burkett's excellent work ''Stolen Valor'' notwithstanding, you have to ask why so many WWII and Korea vets called VN vets crybabies.

People who were there, such as the late David Hackworth, maintain that medals were inflated and the awards system was out of control.

What I find disturbing is the lack of respect for the Vietnam combat veteran

In 2008-09 I find that extremely hard to believe.

They originally were awarded as an order similar to the Legion of Merit, often to foreigners, for things such as helping downed US airmen to escape, etc.:

1. Gold Palm, equivalent to the Legion of Merit, Chief Commander

2. Silver Palm, equivalent to the Legion of Merit, Commander

3. Bronze Palm, equivalent to the Legion of Merit, Officer and Legionnaire.

4. Without palm, equivalent to the Bronze Star Medal, When awarded to citizens of the United States, it was awarded without palm.

Here is a Commonwealth grouping with it:

Thanks for that!

I recently developed an interest in the old US Medal of Freedom; a plastic cased version like yours was recently on e-pay but of course I lost. It's one of those things I'm still p!ssed about.

That medal wasn't awarded as much as the current version is. By the way, do you think that a cased Medal of Freedom is probably one that was awarded? I'm wondering if there were surplus stocks as with some military medals.

Mike, no it hasn't.

Here 'tis:

US Navy Distinguished Achievement in Science Medal

Presidential Distinguished Civilian Federal Service Medal:

Has the USN Distinguished Achievement in Science Medal been posted (search function won't search this thread)?

While a fine semantic distinction, serving "with" the US forces is not the same as serving alonside US forces. Properly, these Dutch soldiers should not have received Purple Hearts. They wore Dutch uniforms, were paid by the Dutch government, and their service records were maintained by the Dutch forces. Ultimately they were responsible to the senior Dutch officer in their chain of command. They simply took operational orders from US officers in the UN Command. While you will find general orders for many of the other decorations awarded to allies, I've never seen a GO for a Purple Heart to an allied soldier. And, as far as the Army is concerned, if there is no source document (GO, letter order, etc) making the award, it didn't happen.

I'm not so sure that that's true; the Dutch Battalion was the fourth battalion of the 38th Infantry, just as the Greek Battalion was 4/7 Cavalry and the French were 4/23 Infantry.

Not to quibble, but they, as well as the French and Greeks, wore US uniforms and were equipped with US weapons. This was not true with with the Commonwealth Division (for example), which was a totally separate force.

The Dutch were an integral part of the 38th RCT; therefore, I think they would be entitled to all US awards.

Here 'tis:

Lieutenant Genis is awarded the following distinction by the President of the United States :

Member of the Belgian Battalion in Korea under the UN Command, has distinguished himself by his courageous and determined actions during the night of December 3rd 1951 at NALGUN DONG. Lt GENIS led his platoon through a minefield here a friendly patrol was stopped, suffering many causalities. Aided by Pvt VANBECELAERE he worked his way through the minefield. After one hour in complete darkness, he rendered al the mines safe and thus led the patrol safely back to the lines. This heroic action warrants great admiration for himself and also the Belgian Army.

With photo: http://belgian-volunteercorps-korea.be/eng...onlight%20e.htm

Thank you for the responses.

I'd imagine that since those awards were still fairly new, that it was possible to confuse the precedence. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the precedence was not formally established or widely known at the time.

I still can't figure out why the DSM would originally have been the medal for the Certificate of Merit conversion....

Did the Army DSM originally take precedence over the DSC? I've been reading a book about MacArthur and in at least two photographs, his DSM is ahead of his DSC on his ribbon bar. The two photos are from the 1925-28 time frame. Other photos however, before and after, show his DSC at the top.

I do know that originally the Navy DSM took precedence over the Navy Cross unless the NC was awarded for combat.

Maybe this is why the DSM was the medal for Certificate of Merit conversions...

I will look forward to seeing it!! I have never seen a Soldier's Medal awarded to a foreign military member before!!

Slight correction--it just dawned upon me that it was to a Belgian. I'll see if I can find it anyway.

Speaking of which, I saw a photo of either an Australian or Brit being awarded the SM, in WWII (it's in that softcover book about the SM).

I haven't checked in to this forum in a while; sorry for the thread bump.

A few months ago, I saw something online about a soldier with the Dutch Battalion in Korea receiving the Soldier's Medal; it was for rescuing someone in a mine field. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Evidently this Angolia character posts here.

By Ben Paynter

Published: April 5, 2007

In October 2006, a few months after Allen DeCamp of Shawnee had buried his father, Robert, he received a letter that made him suspicious. It was from a retired Army lieutenant colonel named John Angolia.

Angela C. Bond

Allen DeCamp says a collector caused him more grief after his father died.

Subject(s): Fort Leavenworth, Hitler, World War II, Army

"I have read of the passing of your husband and can understand the grief you are feeling," Angolia wrote. "I see that he was a veteran of WWII."

DeCamp had made sure that his dad's military status was listed in his Kansas City Star death notice. His father had left college to serve in Panama, eventually working his way up to staff sergeant. The letter had been addressed to DeCamp's 86-year-old stepmother but was forwarded to DeCamp because she is debilitated with Alzheimer's.

"I have devoted my entire adult life to the service of my country," Angolia's letter continued. "Additionally, I have expended considerable time, energy, and money ... and established a 3,700 sq. ft. non-fee historical museum dealing with artifacts of that period."

Angolia asked to purchase "or receive as a donation" any war souvenirs that Robert DeCamp may have left behind. The letter promised that the items would be shared "with the many visitors from all over the world who come each year to see the displays I have been able to put together. In this manner the material and its history can be preserved."

DeCamp, a private-practice litigation lawyer, noticed that the museum didn't seem to have an official name, company letterhead or formal address. He Googled the letter's return address, which turned up a sale listing for Angolia's almost-3-acre estate in Stillwell. The site included pictures of a private military collection in the basement.

DeCamp's father had given away the last of his memorabilia ? his silver dog tags ? to a stepson as a wedding gift. But DeCamp began to question Angolia's motives.

Mike Bussell knows the feeling. Bussell says that in late May 2001, his 79-year-old grandmother was also approached by Angolia, who had read about her husband's World War II service in an obituary a few weeks earlier. Bussell's grandfather had been a B-17 bomber pilot based in England, part of the "flying fortress" raids over Germany. Bussell, who works as a police officer (he declines to name the department, saying he's commenting to the Pitch as a private citizen), says Angolia came to his grandmother's Overland Park doorstep. She gave him regalia, including wartime photos, medals and a shrapnel-pierced bomber jacket.

"She was under the understanding that he was collecting for a museum," Bussell says. But Bussell grew angry when he called to find out where he might see the goods and learned that it would be in a residential basement. "I told him we weren't interested in adding to his personal collection," he says. After arguing with Angolia, he says, he got the goods back. "She felt embarrassed, like she had been taken advantage of. She's from a generation of people who take others at their word."

Angolia says he is misunderstood. Recently, he offered the Pitch a tour of his showroom. Just north of Metcalf and 183rd Street, Angolia's estate features lush gardens and ornate statues. (It's for sale, listed at $990,000.)

His collection is stored in a rec-room-type space with separate rooms for each service branch: Army, Navy, Marines and "Aviation," which encompasses the history of flying for all service branches. The antique inventory includes M1 and Japanese Arisaka rifles, wall-to-wall display cases lined with Purple Heart medals, about 700 unique German belt buckles, swastika fender ornaments, swastika-emblazoned beer steins and busts of Hitler. Angolia estimates that he has more than 125 mannequins dressed in period uniforms. Incongruously, one room contains his desk and computer, and another features a wet bar and pee pads for his dogs, which are trained to urinate indoors.

The silver-haired Angolia, 71, says his interest in memorabilia started at age 8, a product of growing up in Washington, D.C., during a time dominated by World War II news stories and war-bond drives. Angolia says he enlisted in December 1953 and spent 26 years in the Army before retiring. He says he served in Korea and Vietnam. In one corner, his own uniform boasts two Bronze Stars and an Army Ranger pin. Angolia says he guarded dignitaries at John F. Kennedy's funeral service and taught tactics at the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth. He has written 35 books, including For Fuhrer and Fatherland: Military Awards of the Third Reich and Belt Buckles & Brocades of the Third Reich. Most of his titles have sold 5,000 to 10,000 copies, he says.

Angolia calls his museum "semi-private," meaning invitation-only. He won't disclose how many visitors he gets each year, but he claims "busloads" of veterans came to see his stuff a few years ago. He says his reputation as a collector draws unsolicited donations from veterans. "I'm world-famous," he says.

When asked about the letters he sends to widows, Angolia says: "Does this look duplicitous?" He waved a hand toward the display cases. He declined to say how many letters he sends out annually.

He would never sell donated goods for profit, he says. "I store it until I'm capable of displaying it. I don't sell it because what I don't use today, I use tomorrow." He says that he and his wife plan to build a new home in Leawood for more display space. "I am what I am. Everything I say I am, I can verify."

Meanwhile, DeCamp called various consumer protection agencies but found no basis for filing a legal complaint. "I'm not really a consumer, and he's not in the stream of commerce, so to speak," DeCamp says.

But he recently discovered a May 2, 1999, posting on an Internet forum devoted to war gear, the K98k Bayonet Collector's Network. Beneath a listing for "LTC. (Ret.) John R. Angolia" is a straight-up solicitation: "I collect Third Reich material of all organizations. Because my collection is so large, I have a fair amount of duplicates that are for sale or trade."

Manion's Military Auction Kansas City, Kansas.

"He's both bought and sold from us, but not consistently," says John Conway, Manion's vice president of sales and marketing. Conway recalls Angolia selling numerous garage-sale-quality trinkets a few years ago. Angolia hasn't sold anything to Manion for about to years, Conway says.

"Most of what he's brought in has been really kind of low-end, undesirable stuff over the years, like uniforms without insignias and bits and pieces of stuff. If he's selling anything that is really great stuff, it's not coming through us."

When the Pitch called Angolia and asked if he was using the Internet or auction houses to unload grievers' goods, he reacted angrily.

"I don't dispose of anything that I get from a widow or a vet," he shouted before hanging up the phone.

Found on:

A war memorabilia collector hits up widows of vets.

http://www.pitch.com/2007-04-05/news/widow-shopper/

All,

Hope someone can help me with this. I am looking for a list of enlisted recipients of the Distinguished Service Medals of the various services except those that were replacement awards of the Certificate of Merit. I have found awards to the senior enlisted members of each of the services( including one with an OLC ). I have also found an award to Floyd Bennett for service in the arctic and awards of the Navy DSM to three enlisted marines during WWI. However I have read that the Navy DSM was awarded to 15 enlisted members during this period as were 2 Army DSM's. Thanks in advance.

John

WWI recipient:

Halyburton, Edgar M., SGT, Company F, 16th Infatnry, 1st Division DSM# 1425

This evidently was not a Certificate of Merit conversion.

FYI

There is a picture of a Bronze Star in "Call of Duty" page 166 with a wrap broach.

Says, "Navy issue Bronze Star with wrap broach". Nothing more, nothing less

I knew this, I was just testing you.

Seriously, I think the first awards were given to Generals Patton and/or Bradley. I would imagine the first awards were probably made to the army.

Hi Darrell - Both are 'WW2' manufacture but they are not the earilest type. The fist forms came with the 'wrap broach' - the style seen on many earleir awards. From what I have learned the first bronze stars seem to have been awarded to the Navy and the USMC and therefore came with the wrap broach and hte shorter 'coffin' style boxes. However - there is no way to tell if these are truly WW2 era - as they made millions of this 'sewn broach' Bronze Stars and they were awarded in Korea, Vietnam and even up to Desert Storm...

The 'Swank' BS's you see on ebay are in my opinion surplus awards that were found in PA and issued to Desert Storm troops. They were being sold at something like .85 cents ea as I recall when I conversed with the vet.

Still - they are well above the quality that is handed out to our hero's today...

I don't believe BSM's ever came with "coffin" boxes and they certainly didn't have "wrap broaches" since they were first produced in 1944.

The first awards went to the army which is not surprising since it was an army-conceived medal.

I was curious if any of you patch collectors have seen this pocket patch:

Don't know anything about it although I believe it's from just after that unit served in VN, around '72. I'm hoping it's one of the scarcer ones(?)

Yeah it's not the Navy Expeditionary, because that ribbon has blue at the outer edges whereas this one has the yellow all the way to the edges.

I'm certain it's for his 1938 flight, but I can't figre out what the ribbon is (unless the Mackay trophy had its own ribbon back then).

Other Federal/civilian decorations are worn in the order they were awarded, which would make sense in this order.

General Curtis Lemay in this photo is wearing a ribbon directly after his Air Medal ribbon which at first glance looks like a USN Expeditionary, only it's not. I suspect it is in recognition for his 1938 flight of XB-17's to South America; for that feat he (and others) received the Mackay Trophy. My question is: what ribbon is it?

Contemporary USAF recipients of the Mackay Trophy are recognized by the Air Force Recognition Ribbon, btw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Curtis_..._%28USAF%29.jpg

Do you have some to show us?

Paul

No, I sure don't.

Also, I seem to recall that certain militaria/surplus catalogs used to sell East German uniforms for a pittance. Don't know if they still do...Anybody know? I wish I'd picked some up at the time.

I recently acquired an interest in collecting DDR uniforms and ribbon bars--are they easily "put together"/faked?

Which is the best reference book?

Interesting take on things, what with the recent hue and cry about the over-awarding of medals:

http://staging.armytimes.com/story.php?f=0...PER-2090491.php

Unfortunately the recipient has his back to the camera...Does anyone know what the award looks like?

http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/soldierstories/s...ory_id_key=9573

The way the headline was worded for a split second I thought of the RK. I'm not very up-to-date.

Edit: I believe I posted this in the wrong forum.

Major in the NZ forces is awarded a Bronze Star by the US:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cf...jectid=10406248

Nice photo of him with court-mounted medals.