Archer

No one surnamed Mead by that initial or that regimental number in those battalions on the rolls at ancestry.com

Jan Willem Janssens

For what it's worth, I think the star obscured by his cordon of the Military Willem Order is the star of a Grand Officer of the French Legion d'Honneur.

He was awarded:

* Commander of the Order of the Union, 25 November 1807

* Grand Cross of the Order of the Union, 3 February 1808

* Grand Officer of the Legion of Honour, 16 May 1811

* Grand Cross of the Order of the Reunion, 22 February 1812

* Grand Cross of the Military William Order (KB No.16, 8 July 1815)

* Grand Cross of the Order of the Netherlands Lion.

He is of interest to us, in South Africa, because he was our Governor, too, 1803-1806.

Also a stray Nationalist China/Taiwan medal - can you identify?

Seen in Insa-Dong ... two Korean medals - can you identify?

That cap is breathtaking (and very well photographed). Mind you, it was made in England.

William

What is this medal?

P.S. Just a few thoughts on the ICOC.

What is remarkable is how the ICOC has fallen under different influences over time. The Order of St. Lazarus is a good marker of this.

The 1964 edition of the Commission's output recognised St. Lazarus as an Order. In January 1996, when the commission consisted of ten members, no fewer than seven of them were members of that order (see here). But then a new wave of influence broke. The commission became markedly more Italian and Vatican-oriented.

On 27 September 2001, "in order to remove any doubt that there may be Members of the Commission who might indirectly influence the Commission’s free decision making process, it was decided to widen Article VII of the Statutes thus: “... those who are legal representatives, Heads or officers of any body which might at some time be the object of study by the Commission and therefore listed in future in the International Register of Orders of Chivalry can, in no way whatsoever, be part of the Commission. It was further suggested to include a new subdivision: Organisations referring to Orders or Award systems previously bestowed by state bodies in the past.” And the Order of St. Lazarus was consigned to limbo and damned with faint praise:

"it has been decided not to include Saint Lazarus in the 2001 Register, although it is based on the 1964 edition, thus following the precise clarifications the Holy See [hello hello!] has given on a number of occasions through L’Osservatore Romano. ... It should be noted that Saint Lazarus, which thus cannot be considered an order of chivalry, carries out praiseworthy charitable, humanitarian activity producing numerous contributions to social works and therefore it might be included among in a category of Organisations inspired by Chivalry."

What the ICOC says today, it can easily repudiate tomorrow it seems!

William

Thanks.

Under the ICOC's own Principles involved in assessing the validity of Orders of Chivalry [which state that the 'international “status” of an Order of Knighthood rests ... on the rights of fons honorum, which, according to tradition, must belong to the Authority by which this particular Order is granted, protected or recognised'], it seems difficult to understand how an Order founded by a Regent (although, of course he was de facto head of state), whose authority and regime were abolished at the end of the Second World War, could be "revived" by private citizens as a knightly order in 1953.

The Order of St. Lazarus was less politely treated by the ICOC in 2002. But the views of the ICOC and the real world do not always intersect, of course.

At any rate your friend rendered sterling service and was rightfully honoured by the people he was helping.

Without wishing to unleash World War 3 ...

Could either of you tell me by what fount of honour this order is bestowed? Has the Hungarian Government adopted it as an honour under the official Hungarian honours system. And if so, is it still restricted to Xian recipients? Or is it in fact a self-perpetuating "International Order"?

I am interested in the claim that it can be worn "in front of the Queen or any crowned head of Europe." If a British subject applied for official permission to wear, would their request be granted?

I am NOT attempting to disparage the Order, but I am curious about its status.

William

Thanks ... that is most interesting. Let's see what happens!

William

Sorry, Hugh - your message didn't come through - only the quote.

Dear Forum members

The airplane engines are warming up - a week-long visit to Seoul is in the offing.

Is there any way in Seoul to collect medals? Any outlets? What is the inside track, please!?

Thanks in advance

William

Good on you, Len. Renamed or not, I strongly believe the recipient wore the medal and there is still a story to be told.

William

Here he is in the Congo wearing his medal bar, but the resolution is not high enough to see things clearly.

Here is a picture dated 1959 from UNPhoto

if it is a tailor copy the naming of this medal was pretty much similar to originals which i have

Agreed.

Need your valuable input on naming bit

Thank you. If only my input was valuable! But after almost a week none of us has been able to obtain irrefutable confirmation that the Lakshwadeep and Minicoy clasp is officially authorised.

Investigations are continuing, however, even though very slowly.

William

The best I can do at present is this:

[1] Yes, Southern Naval Command has been busy in the vicinity of Lakshwadeep and Minicoy, as I said above.

[2] Having said that, queries to folks in New Delhi about this clasp have drawn a blank.

[3] There is a possibility that the clasp is not so much a tailor's copy as a tailor's fantasy.

[4] The search continues, however, for confirmation one way or the other.

Fascinating thread.

William

He ... seems to have performed less than average on field exercises, which may have been a legit reason for the general to be less than satisfied with him.

Yes. He goes into that episode in quite a lot of detail in his memoirs. He says humourously that he was finally allowed to pass out from the equitation centre because they couldn't bear to have him there any longer!

His father was (by his description) very stupid, but a very skilled horseman.

I did not know there was such as thing as "officially" engraved.

Some QSA's - most typically Medals to certain Officers - were issued engraved, not impressed. I would define that as "officially engraved." The engraving was carried out by the medal issuing authority and not at the whim of a regiment or individual.

Fantastic!

We need a colour portrait of the old man.

Did you know he was FORBIDDEN by his seniors to enter Finland in 1940. He sent his troops in on the land route around the head of the Gulf, then drove himself across the frozen Gulf of Bothnia, but was forced to turn around in the outskirts of Vaasa and drove back.

I don't know about UNEF, according to Swedish Wikipedia, it seems like UNTSO, ONUC and UNYOM were the only UN missions he served in

I guessed UNEF because he was chief of staff in Jerusalem at the time, and mentions UNEF several times in the book. I am possibly out of line.

Does he wear a couple of UN ribbons as #2 and #3? It looks like the early ONUC version and UNTSO

I agree. It looks that way.

In this photograph dated 1958, taken from his book, he sports a (seemingly all-metal) breast badge of an Order (Vasa?)

Wow Jonas. That was quick!!

Please try to find the color picture. He should have had four UN medal ribbons as well: UNEF, UNTSO, ONUC, and UNYOM.

Thanks!

William

I am happy to go with that, because the letters look "too large" to me.

It's difficult without seeing the medal under a glass. But rather safe than sorry.

Dear Forum members

I do not think this gentleman has been mentioned here. I have searched the Forums without success.

I am enjoying his book, Soldiering for Peace.

[a] Can a Forum member post a clear head and shoulders photo of Gen. van Horn showing his medals/ribbons?

Can someone tell us when he died, please?

Thanks in advance

William