Hugh
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Posts posted by Hugh
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The curse of collecting medals from Bahawalpur is that they are often offered without ribbon, and no one seems to know where to find replacements. The other caveat is that apparently there was a firm in England (somewhere in the North?) which was counterfeiting some of these medals. In my youth and innocence
, I bought a couple of these, which came with lovely new ribbons which match the descriptions in McGlenahan's book. There was a thread about them here some years ago, but I don't think the seller was identified. Perhaps someone will be able to resurrect it. Perhaps it might lead you to a source for ribbon. Good luck.Hugh
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Thanks again, Bernhard. Dalloz's comments seem a little strange, don't they? Unless the Maghrebiens and other Africans were not used as combat troops, why would they have avoided combat deaths? Certainly I would expect that the Legionnaires would have been in the front lines - how did they escape combat deaths? On the other hand, why would the French have avoided death by disease? And no breakdown of Indochinese cause of deaths (about 40,000+), whom you have discussed many times in previous posts as being on the front lines.
Perhaps we'll never know the real answers.
Best,
Hugh
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Hi, Bernhard,
Do you have any breakdown on how many were Europeans and how many were colonials?
Best,
Hugh
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This looks to me like the Bahawalpur Northwest Frontier Medal 1914-1919 - Item 15 under Bahawalpur section of Tony McGlenaghan's book, Indian Princely Medals, (p. 33). Bahawalpur is indeed an Indian princely state which opted to join Pakistan at the time of Partition. It border on the Indian state of Rajahstan. I've been there once for tank exercises with the Army. VERY hot.
Quoting from McGlenaghan, it is also "referred to "...as North West Frontier Medal 1914-1918, Frontier Service 1914-1920 and Indian Frontier Medal 1914-19." The obverse is the Type 3 bust of the young Sadiq Muhammed Khan V in full dress military uniform without headdress. The English translation of the inscription is said to be, "By the Grace of God Sadiq Muhammed Abassi Fifth. Ruler of God Gifted Kingdom of Bahawalpur". Size should be 37mm. The medal is known in both gilt medal and bronze; it is unknown whether a silver version exists. McGlenahan does not give a translation of the inscription on the reverse side, which has a mounted sowar as shown in your image. The 26mm ribbon is pale pink with a 2.5mm pale blue stripes edged with a fine black line 2.5mm from each edge. The medal was designed by Spink. Naming is impressed in capitals.
Thanks to Mr. McGlenahan for his data.
Does this correspond with your medal?
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Perfect! That's done it, chapter and verse. Quite different from the American practice in the mid-20th century.
It's amazing what the members of this forum know or can dig up.
Many thanks,
Hugh
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Aha! After all, it is the business of poets to be poetic.
It sounds as though you are describing a parade of two ranks (a wide front). Now let's consider a company mass formation. For example, three platoons of three squads each. In that case, I'd guess the rank would be 9 across, and the file would be 12 - 20 men long, tall men in front. In that case, how would you revise your description?
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Thank´s Bernhard,
I know that he was in the French Foreign Legion from 1948 until 1958.
He was promoted Sergent 1.12.1955 and wounded in North Vietnam 26.10.1952
at Ban Fe Trosc ?
KR
Andreas
I'm not a Vietnamese linguist, but this name doesn't look Vietnamese to me except for the first word which reminds me of Ban Me Thuot, a city in Dak Lak province, which is in South Viet Nam.
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Bear with me, this gets a little complicated. One of my favorite poems is Danny Deever by Rudyard Kipling. The poem is in the form of a dialogue between Files-on-Parade and the Colour Sergeant. I've never known what Files-on-Parade meant, but I assume it's a functional title, like Platoon Guide in the US Army - not a rank, but a job description, suggesting a slight seniority to the rank and file. I know we had file closers at the Naval Academy. They marched at the rear of the company in mass formation, allegedly to keep order, although they were usually chosen from the slackers and grabass members of the First Class (seniors) and didn't do much for good order and discipline.
At any rate, I know someone here will be able to tell me what Files-on-Parade means. Thanks in advance.
‘What are the bugles blowin’ for?' said Files-on-Parade.‘To turn you out, to turn you out,’ the Colour-Sergeant said.‘What makes you look so white, so white?’ said Files-on-Parade.‘I’m dreadin’ what I’ve got to watch,’ the Colour-Sergeant said.For they’re hangin’ Danny Deever, you can hear the Dead March play,The Regiment’s in ’ollow square—they’re hangin’ him to-day;They’ve taken of his buttons off an’ cut his stripes away,An’ they're hangin’ Danny Deever in the mornin’.‘What makes the rear-rank breathe so ’ard?’ said Files-on-Parade.‘It’s bitter cold, it's bitter cold,’ the Colour-Sergeant said.‘What makes that front-rank man fall down?’ said Files-on-Parade.‘A touch o’ sun, a touch o’ sun,’ the Colour-Sergeant said.They are hangin’ Danny Deever, they are marchin’ of ’im round,They ’ave ’alted Danny Deever by ’is coffin on the ground;An’ ’e’ll swing in ’arf a minute for a sneakin’ shootin’ hound—O they’re hangin’ Danny Deever in the mornin!’‘’Is cot was right-’and cot to mine,’ said Files-on-Parade.‘’E’s sleepin’ out an’ far to-night,’ the Colour-Sergeant said.‘I’ve drunk ’is beer a score o’ times,’ said Files-on-Parade.‘’E’s drinkin’ bitter beer alone,’ the Colour-Sergeant said.They are hangin’ Danny Deever, you must mark ’im to ’is place,For ’e shot a comrade sleepin’—you must look ’im in the face;Nine ’undred of ’is county an’ the Regiment’s disgrace,While they’re hangin’ Danny Deever in the mornin’.‘What’s that so black agin the sun?’ said Files-on-Parade.‘It’s Danny fightin’ ’ard for life,’ the Colour-Sergeant said.‘What’s that that whimpers over’ead?’ said Files-on-Parade.‘It’s Danny’s soul that’s passin’ now,’ the Colour-Sergeant said.For they’re done with Danny Deever, you can ’ear the quickstep play,The Regiment’s in column, an’ they’re marchin’ us away;Ho! the young recruits are shakin’, an’ they’ll want their beer to-day,After hangin’ Danny Deever in the mornin’!Source: A Choice of Kipling's Verse (1943)
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I graduated from the Naval Academy, and we had no such belt buckles then. I've never seen one. It looks like a swordbelt buckle. By my time, we were using the standard USN officer's belt/buckle. 1900 sounds about right for a date. The Academy was founded in 1845, and we surely wouldn't have started out with bling like that.
Congratulations,
Hugh
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I've asked Ed to let us know when volumes become available for purchase.
Best,
H
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As I mentioned, Ed has moved on, but he has authorized me to give you and update on his work. I'm sure some of you may be interested to see what he's up to. I've asked him to let us know when he has something available for readers. I've quoted from his messages below:
The current research on Afghan awards now stands at a working manuscript of 222 pages. If you're willing, I'd appreciate it if you could share that with the GMIC. Thanks again, Ed
It had been my intent to make all my stuff available on a "Creative Commons" basis through my SAGongs forum, but right now I am less certain. The problem is that the lack of sources make all the projects difficult, much more challenging than the India book was. But however rough the work is, it is better than anything else out there and I know too many people who waited to get their work "just right" but their own time ran out first.Overview: In an effort to combine my academic work with my hobby, I am working (slower than I would like) on a major study of the evolution of honors policy in South Asia from around 1780 through 1992. In the process of doing this, I discovered the almost total lack of basic information on the awards of India and of the other states of South Asia (defined, somewhat mechanically, as the SAARC member States). This led to the publication, with my co-author Rana Chhina, of Medals and Decorations of Independent India in 2008. We had originally intended that the book cover all of South Asia but for a number of reasons (length being just one of them), we sliced the project apart with the India volume (including Sikkim, 272 pages as published), and separate volumes (still emerging) on Pakistan (305 pages in the working manuscript), Afghanistan (222 pages), and a volume covering the remaining South Asian nations (Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Druk Yul, the Maldives, and Myanmar -- currently 414 pages). There is also an emerging South Asian Battles and Medals in two volumes (305 and 266 pages). I also have three volumes (soon to be sliced into four?) on the awards of the Arab States (463, 338, and 445 pages).0 -
hello Ed,
regarding your post #7: I think it is the order of Fidelity (Nishan-i-Wafa)
regards / Jan van Eijden
Unfortunately, Ed has departed this forum. However, I have relayed your response to him. Let's see if he responds.
Best,
Hugh
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No, he got $64. That was the original saying. $64,000 would have been nice, but I think they would have had different questions. I think the television program "$64,000 Question" came along in the '70's? Never saw it, but they had a big scandal, feeding answers to the contestants. Charles Van Doren?
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Oh, Mervyn, Mervyn, Mervyn! The answer is in the question - blue, of course. Not that it's true, it's just the answer. My father was an engineer, but he also had a sense of humor.
H
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Thanks. Got it from Liverpool Medals back in '05.
H
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Alas, they are framed behind glass, and I'm too lazy to undo the whole board to get at them. At least for the moment. I have other medals to add to that board, and one day, I'll get the urge.
Best,
H
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I guess this gives me a chance to show off one of my babies.
Imperial Order of the Double Dragon, 2nd Type (1900-1911), 2nd Class, 3rd Grade, Neck badge and star in silver/gold and enamel
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This is one American who has never seen the double eagle in the "flesh". We have a few of the old gold coins but only up to the $10. The color and texture of the gold is wonderful.
The silver dollars have virtually disappeared except among collectors, but I can remember my father being on a radio quiz program, "The $64 Dollar Question", probably in the 1950's. The prize was paid in silver dollars, which we held onto for years. The question? What is the color of the Beautiful Blue Danube?
Finally, please enjoy the wonderful Austrian march, "Under the Double Eagle".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9sQSjMqFiM
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Oh, this will have me "wasting" hours poking around in the records! Thank you, Hilary.
Hugh
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Hmm, disappointed but not surprised.
Thanks,
Hugh
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Thanks, Peter. Most of the credit goes to Hilary, who added some great stuff. I'd love to know how to access the HEIC material. Is there an online data base?
Best,
Hugh
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Just to be completely clear, I don't have any specific knowledge of direct connections with either the John Tulloch family nor Maj Gen. Derek Tulloch. My grandfather was Donald Tulloch (no middle name) - 1862-1938 - married to Isabella Ross Mackenzie - 1865-1943 - both born in Inverness.
His father was Donald Tulloch (no middle name) - 1827 - 1896 - married to Elizabeth Campbell - 1827-1896 . Their children were
Hugh Alexander Tulloch - 1856 - 1927, never married
William Tulloch - 1859-1922
Donald Tulloch (above), my grandfather, came to Worcester, Mass in 1889.
John Tulloch - 1866-??? - married Jeannie Baird
Kenneth Tulloch - 1870-1877
James Tulloch - 1873 - ???, no further data
I have a copy of a photo of the five surviving brothers, looking reasonably prosperous in their Sunday suits.
Do any of these names connect to your side? What's your husbands full name and date of birth? (Feel free to take this over to a private message if you prefer.)
Best,
Hugh
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Hilary, thanks for your information. It confirms much of what we've found so far. My surname is Tulloch, and the family comes from Inverness. My grandfather left in the late 1880's for the USA, and we have lost touch with most of the family on the other side of the Atlantic. Still know of a couple of us in Australia. Not sure whether there is a direct connection with Edward Tulloch, but we were a prolific family, so I wouldn't be surprised. I wasn't aware of an Irish side to the family. Is your husband connected to the Inverness crowd?
The medal actually belongs to my nephew, who has lent it to me long-term as he has given up collecting. I think he bought it from Spinks many years ago. Sorry to say that I have no more information on Edward Tulloch beyond these postings, but would be very interested in the history when it comes out.
Best,
Hugh
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How perfect - everybody is right!
Thanks for your help - both of you.
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Another medal
in Great Britain: Empire: Colonial Including South Africa & India: Awards, Militaria & History
Posted
Others are better sources than I, but I'd say Transport(ation) Corps.
H