Hugh

Now for a little fun... What is strange from this ribbon bar? Is it a correct and legitimate piece? That is enough for now! Lets hear your input!

It all looks kosher and in the proper order except for the first all-red ribbon, which could be FR Legion of Honor among many others. But an American would never wear it first.

Where can we find a reference for Japanese clan crests?

I have a couple of very detailed books in Japanese (which I don't read). Could probably scan a page and let one of our linguists translate.

Thanks Hugh.........do you know the exact designation of your item?

Drew

Sorry, no,

Some TW friends gave it to me with a frame of commissioning pennants (I was a USN officer) as a gift when I left the territory. However, I'd bet a little money it's just the MND insignia.

Best,

Hugh

Can you post a scan / picture of it for reference?

Drew

Here it is. It's about 100 mm wide / 63 mm high.

Good Day guys - herewith a picture of my Indian and Pakistani Army Intelligence Corps insignia. Kind regards, Drew Chaney

ps - if you can to this page.........???? Fingers crossed, as theres no doubt a few holes in the collection.

I vaguely remember getting some Intell badges in Rawalpindi once upon a time. I'll rummage around to see what I have. I think they were different to these.

Hugh

Hello All,

I understand that there are (at least ??) 2 types of Siam/Thailand Order of the Elephant (founded in 1861).

Please see the two photos attached below.: 1st type on the left; 2nd type on the right.

That I would like to know is in what "Time-Frame" (from/to) can be posted the 1^st type and obviously also the 2^nd type.

A knowledge of when approx. the Order changed from type 1 to type 2 would help very much.

All the Best

Lilo

Don't really know, but I've got one of each. The one on the right is the newer one, as I think you know, and i got mine in Bangkok in the 1980's. The other is in an old looking case that I'd guess dates back before World War II. I suppose it's conceivable that the change was made at the time of the accession of the current king Bhumibol (around 1941?), but that's just speculation. Maybe my friend in Bangkok can dig up something.

I seek the following insignia:

If you have a mate in Seoul, there are quite a number of uniform and insignia shops around the Korean War Museum on the west side (away from the base at Yongsan). As I said in an earlier post, they're very cautious about selling to foreigners, but perhaps a Korean national could elicit something.

Definitely ROC / ChiNat. I don't know about the blue / white flash, but the rest is the classic insignia of the Ministry of National Defense. I have one just like it except it has a wreath around and five-petaled plum(?) blosson on top.

Forgot to add, mine is current issue.

G'day....herewith an insignia I think is pre world war 2, pre-communsit Chinese. Any views?

Designation?

Circa?

Any help greatly appreciated. Drew

Definitely ROC / ChiNat. I don't know about the blue / white flash, but the rest is the classic insignia of the Ministry of National Defense. I have one just like it except it has a wreath around and five-petaled plum(?) blosson on top.

Hello there... I seek to inquire if anyone can help me with Royal Thai Army PSYOPS and Civil Affairs unit insignia?

Can you help?

Drew

I THINK I can dig out a couple of cards for Thai medal / insignia shops if you can communicate with them in Thai. Let me know before I start the search.

Hello Guys.....Interesting medal. I have a TAIWAN POLITICAL ACADEMY medal similar to the medal ribbon. I'll take photos of such and post accordingly. My items are recent. I am interested in learning if you chaps have a access to TAIWAN POLITICAL WARFARE BUREAU / DEPARTMENT military insignia, regalia and medals? Take care, Drew Chaney

Hi, Drew, looking forward to seeing the medal. I used to travel quite regularly to Taiwan, and was able to amass quite a few TW medals. About the only down side to retirement seems to be that I don't make those trips any more (and that's not all bad, either).

However, I do have a card for a shop in Shi Men Ding, Taipei, which could probably meet you needs IF you can communicate with them in Chinese. Frankly, I doubt that they'll be much interested in the hassle of shipping to Australia, but if you can surmount the language barrier, it may be worth a try. Phone would probably be better than a letter to start with; it's too easy to ignore a letter. Of curse, the best would be to find a friend who would walk in their door.

I also saw your post on Korea. The ROK is extremely careful to safeguard their medals, and most of the shops wouldn't even talk to me. Don't know if they would be the same about insignia, but I suspect they would. I have no current info on PRC.

Medal "75th Anniversary of Militia" and Medal "80th Anniversary of Militia"

pictures:

http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=1699...st&p=156651

and 80 years on another type of suspension:

Medali "80 sol TMM ChT"

This is jubilee medal (Tajik DOSAAF?).

pictures: http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=3253...st&p=322369

Unknown Medal

Good heavens! I'm overwhelmed by the extent of this material. Many thanks for your efforts.

Hugh

As they are freshly struck from the original dies, it is hard to say. Lack of age, perhaps? Remember, these common medals should be 60+ years old. Personally, it has just put me off anything Bahawalpur.

The additional complexity is that it SEEMS that given the odd nature of Bahawalpur withing Pakistan, Bahawalpur continued blissfully awarding, creating, and redesigning awards until at least the late 1960s. There are some very odd and deviant specimens of the orders that are either prototypes for or actually awarded post-Integration redesigns.

I'd say that provenance is key. Anothing coming out in the UK should pehaps be avoided, though new conduits are bening opened up.

Thanks, Ed. I'm just not sure about these. They look oldish, but I learned years ago in Taiwan that faking antiquity is no great challenge for the specialist. Our rep there strongly discouraged me from buying Chinese antiques there, saying "I made my first few millions faking these things."

Tony's ribbon charts leave a lot to be desired. The next edition (to come from Spink, some day) will be much better, on all levels. A lot of these Bahawalpur medals, however, are very recent productions, being made up and marketed under the close direction of a northern UK seller.

Alas, the fakes are everywhere. Got any hints on what I should be looking for to distinguish them?

BAHAWALPUR -- Independence Medal 1947

I recently acquired this trio from Bahawalpur. Ribbon colors appear a little different from McGlenahan in some instances. I suppose there may be variants, which may be discussed in the appendices?

Hugh

Hello, Hugh!

There are state awards of Tajikistan:

Hero of Tajikistan (Kahramoni Tochikiston)

Tajikistan President's Badge

Order "Star of President of Tajikistan" (Sitorai Prezidenti Tochikiston)

Order "Zarrintoch"

Order "Ismoili Somoni"

Order "Friendship" (Dusti)

Order "Spitamen"

Order "Glory" (Sharaf)

Medal "Valor" (Chasorat)

Medal "Meritorious Worker" (Khizmati Shoista)

Medal "Shafkat"

Medal "Valorous Border Guard of Tajikistan" (Marzboni Shuchoi Tochikiston)

and Honour Titles.

There are also some ministerial awards.

I have information in Russian, but, if you want, I can translate and put it into the forum.

Regards, IVB

I think quite a few of us would be interested if you have the time.

Many thanks,

Hugh

Do any of you have anything on the awards of Tajikstan? We have friends working there now, but they're not phaleristically inclined.

Best,

Hugh

Not Korean

Ihave a friend (retired ROK colonel - artillery) coming in tomorrow for a visit. I'm sure he'd be glad to helpo if anyone has questions on ROK awards.

As hard as it is to get reliable published information on Indian medals after 1947 (so far), it is 10 to 20 times more difficult when it comes to Pakistan!

Forgot to mention - I assume you have the Inter Services Public Relations booklet on uniform and dress, don't you? It's the only specific PAK source I have.

Hi, Ed,

A few questions, please:

1) I assume you've listed these in the order of precedence?

2) I didn't see the Azad Kashmir medal. It's my impression that it's an unofficial commemorative medal; not authorized for wear on the uniform. Is this correct? Any more poop you can offer on this?

3) I didn't see the Democracy medal (Bilal Medal) or the 30 years service. Did you forget, or just get tired?

4) During the times I was travelling frequently in Pakistan, they referred to "Sitara-i-Harb" rather than Istar. Is this a change in usage?

5) Since I no longer go there, I'd love to get the Pakistan Independence Golden Jubilee. Any suggestions? I've lost touch with the dealers / military tailors I used to know. There was a particularly good one on the Mall just to the west of the Intercontinental / Pearl Continental, although he never did much with medals other than mounting them.

Contrary to my post on an earlier US Cold War medal thread, it seems reasonable to me that UK soldiers shoud be permitted to wear the medal. I understand that this is contrary to British policy and tradition, but, for example, I'm allowed by the US to wear campaign medals from both the US and Viet Namese governments for that service, and I can't see that the British uniform would be demeaned by a similar policy, should they choose to change.

What seems inappropriate to me is the award of two medals to the same individual by the same government for the same service, as in the proposed US Cold War Service Medal and the National Defense Service Medal. Duplicative and excessive.

How's that for an opinion? As the saying goes, it's one of two things we all have...

I served from 1961 - 1991, and don't see any real difference between this and the National Defense Service Medal. We're all wearing too much crap already. If this is approved by the services for wear by active duty members on the uniform, I'd take another look. Otherwise, it's just costume jewelry from my point of view.

Hello Hugh,

You told me that the ribbon colours of the 1st and 2nd classes of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and Golden Grain' Orders are as following :

The sash(ribbon) of the Order of the Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain:

1st Class: red with yellow border;

2nd Class: red with blue border.

The sash(ribbon) of the Order of the Golden Grain:

1st Class: yellow with red border;

2nd Class: yellow with white border.

I would have some clarification as following :

1)

A propos of the colours of the ribbon of the Order of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain', in the auction catalog of Sotheby's (24-28/3/1995) I have found 2 Lots with two distinct photos -one in colour for the 1st class and the other in B/W for the 2nd class - of the Chinese, Order of the Precious Golden Grain. Following are the extract of the descriptions in the catalog :

-Lot 341 (color photo on pag 71): China, Order of the Precious Golden Grain [or Excellent Crop], by the Chinese Government Mint, Great War Period, 1st class (with Gran Cordon and Jewels) set of insigna, comprising sash badge and breast star ??????etc???????with original red and yellow sash.

-Lot 342 (B/N photo on pag 74) : China, Order of the Precious Golden Grain [or Excellent Crop], by the Chinese Government Mint, Great War Period, Sash class, 2nd class set of insigna, comprising sash badge and breast star.

I have below attached the 2 photos (1st and 2nd classes) from which you can see/note the colours for both the 1st and the 2nd classes ribbons.

Moreover, as you can note in both the descriptions were used the words : 'Great War Period' meaning that these examples were issued for WW1.

Regarding in particular the 2nd class, the colours of the (sash) ribbon, although the photo is in B/W, can be clearly desumed confronting the various grey shades of the B/W photo with the colour photo of the 1st class : they appears to be inverted. So the conclusion to which I arrived is that the colours for the 2nd class are : 'yellow central stripe + 2 edge red stripes'.

This clearly differ with the description you made of the colours (red with blue border) of the 2nd class of this Order.

My questions :

Can it be that during WW1 for the 2nd class of this Order were used the colours : 'yellow central stripe + 2 red edge stripes' ?

Or these colours were used when the 2nd class of this Order was issued to a foreign (as can be an UK national) ?

What do you know/think about it ?

2)

The following considerations are ESCLUSIVELY referred to the 1st and 2nd classes of the Golden Grain (not also to the other numerous classes of this Order).

A fellow collector (of whom I don't remember the name) explained me that 2 different types of ribbons were used for the ribbon colours of the 'Golden Grain' order,. This collector told me : "The original issue colours of the Golden Grain ribbon was yellow with red borders (1st type ribbon). This was changed in 1916 to yellow with white border (2nd type ribbon).

I ALSO was suggested that the 'yellow with white border' was contemporaneously used for both the 1st and the 2nd classes, and athough the most part of the photographic references I found seems to confirm this I discovered some evidence that confirmed that really 2 ribbons with different colours were used for the Golden Grain Order. To confirm the use of these 2 different colours of ribbons, I have attached 2 photos (3 and 4) as following :

The first photo I have attached is from (I think) a Chinese museum and the Golden Grain shown is a 1st class suspended from a Yellow (that is so faded to seem white) wide central stripe and 2 red edge stripes sash (see photo nr. 3 attached).

The second photo is taken also from the Sotheby's catalog (24-28/3/1995) to which I referred to above:

-Lot 343 (B/W photo on pag 75): China, Order of the Golden Grain, by the Chinese Government Mint, Great War Period, GRAND CROSS [= 1st class] set of insigna, comprising sash badge and breast star ????????etc???????with original yellow and red sash(see photo nr. 4 attached).

As you can note both photos (and the description) I attached, refer to a 1st class and both have the same colours (yellow with red border). This perfectly coincide with the colours of the ribbon you told the 1st class of the Golden Grain Order has.

My question is simple :

Does the difference in the use of the colours of the ribbons is strictly linked to a change of 'class' (i.e. different class = different colours) or does it depends from a 'temporal factor' i.e. from a certain period on (possibily from 1916 on ???) there was a change in the colours of the ribbons ?

In other words ?after having established that 2 different colours for the Golden Grain Ribbon were used- the change in the use of these colours depends from the particular 'class' (i.e. 1st or 2nd) or the change regards a particular 'data' (possibily from 1916 on ???) and ?obviously -in this case the colours were identical for both the 1st and the 2nd classes ?

awaiting to hear from you

Best Regards

Lilo

P:S: as the photos are too large to being attached to this posting, I please you to see them as attached to another forum following the link : <a href="http://www.omsa.org/forums/showthread.php?p=9603&posted=1#post9603" target="_blank">http://www.omsa.org/forums/showthread.php?...sted=1#post9603</a> . The photo are put on my post nr. #7

Hello Hugh,

You told me that the ribbon colours of the 1st and 2nd classes of the 'Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain' and Golden Grain' Orders are as following :

The sash(ribbon) of the Order of the Precious and Brilliant Golden Grain:

1st Class: red with yellow border;

2nd Class: red with blue border.

The sash(ribbon) of the Order of the Golden Grain:

1st Class: yellow with red border;

2nd Class: yellow with white border.

(Unquote)

Dear Lilo,

I'm flattered (but a little embarrassed) that you think I am so knowledgeable. I think you may have confused with Richard LaTondere, who gave a very good writeup in an earlier post. I suggest that he is better qualified to respond. I'm still waiting for a response from the Armed Forces museum in Taipei to the more limited question in your very first post, but nothing yet.

Just as a matter of interest, i have in my collection a Golden Grain 3rd class, which corresponds exactly with the description in Richard's post.

Best,

Hugh