W McSwiggan

Back Again! re: Prussian MVK equivalents - I looked at my sources for the Prussian MVK, Bavarian GTM, Saxon GSHM, Wurttemberg GMVM & Badelonian (just made that up...) K-F Sliver MVM and found estimates of awards at 1770, 1004, 150, 2402 & 1282 respectively for the Great War. Considering the nominal sizes of the contingents of each I conclude that the GSHM is an excellent match. GTM was over done by a factor of about 3 but still reasonable. The Wurttember & Baden awards do not appear to be legitimate equivalents "by the numbers". My information is based on a quick survey of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 6th volumes of the O'Connor series.

As far as MVK equivalents - I'd say the Bavarian GTM and Saxon Gold St Henry are pretty safe bets. Wurttemberg makes me nervous however - their Gold MVM was tied to Snr NCO/Jnr Officer rank. Gonna need a little help on Baden and the lesser sovereigns.

Stogie, You are absolutely correct. Of course - again it's the aviators who get all the glory - not that there's anything wrong with that... O'Connor does mention the intended award of the Commander's Cross of the already included MMJO to Tutschek and the actual award (posthumous) to an Infantry Leutnant! Now there was a stud! Commander SEHO to an aviator serving in the Middleeast comes to mind as well. Name of this officer slips my mind right now but again - the celebrities win...

Rick & Rick, Well done & thanks! As I reread I can see that my post was not at all skillful but you pretty much got it! I presented way too much explanation and not enough clarity in the questions. I was hoping to emerge with an ability to connect the dots for significant awards as predictors of later achievement. Sch?rner, Rommel, Busch being examples of the path I was following. Your answers certainly point to the problem of small sample size. That said ? the real quest was to gain a consensus regarding Pour le Merite equivalents especially for the junior non-celebrity officers. Are my parameters too restrictive if looking for legitimate equivalents? If a Saxon were not realistically going to receive a Plm, what would he receive? MSHO is the clear answer but as pointed out ? a holder would not necessarily be assumed to have performed to the standard required for the Blue Max. Same situation applies to the W?rttemberg MVO. That?s where the WKOX comes in and the answer was a clear no. So the question then becomes ? if Plm, MMJO & MKFVO are as close as it gets to correspondence ? are there other candidate deserving consideration? SEHO? Not by my criteria but are they proper in your estimation? How about the Hessian KEZ in Iron? Bottom line ? what are the legitimate equivalents & why do we consider them so? Thank you for your patience & answers.

I?ve decided to identify with the fools and start an ill-advised thread as my maiden voyage here. I am seeking opinions and data to support identification of ?EQUIVALENTS? ? clearly a fool?s errand! I am interested in military history and especially the ?crossover German soldiers? who served as relative youngsters in the Great War and later became leaders in the Wehrmacht. I have been trying to understand if there were signals that ?marked? some at this early point of their careers. The Pour le merite was a clear signal of such marking especially when one considers the small number of Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery junior officers so recognized. In conversation with my respected tutor and friend ? Rick Lundstr?m, I was quickly shown the error of my perception that the Plm was a Prussian Award granted to all citizens of the empire. Rick was quick to point out that this was the case for the celebrities ? Aviators, Raiders, U-boot Captains - but not so for those carrying the awful burden of direct combat. Officers in the grade of Captain or lower outside the celebrity category did not garner a bountiful harvest of the Blue Max. The Navy?s junior officers who were not flying or submerging won ZERO awards of this medal. The Army?s junior officers won 70 or approximately 13% of the awards versus 215 or 40% to Generals. I base these numbers on an admittedly quick survey of the lists in William Hamelman?s ?History of the Prussian Pour le Merite Order?. Of the 70, only two ? Rommel?s & Sch?rner?s ? went to non-Prussian officers. This leads me to conclude that ?marking? outside Prussian contingents was not done with this award. I have chosen as a start position ? therefore the first element for discussion ? to characterize the Plm as awarded to these officers as: Awarded in ?significant? numbers yet low enough to be exclusive. An ?Officers Only? award (Order). Having a normal progression including as least one lower prerequisite order. The highest award for military merit/bravery. Given my starting point ? I identify the following possibilities: Bavaria?s MMJO (RK) Saxony?s MSHO (RK) but worry that it was much more widely distributed than the Blue Max especially considering the smaller population eligible. W?rttemberg?s WKOX (RK) ? too few to consider? W?rttemberg?s MVO (RK) ? similar concerns as those for MSHO Baden?s MKFVO (RK). The highest orders for the other sovereign entities where either practically ?one offs? or the only order available and hence discounted. Any insights on distribution by grade, disputes due to either inclusion or exclusion are welcome! Let the games begin (I hope)!