W McSwiggan

Les - tangential or not - great post with very interesting information.

For the purpose of clarification - my point - not artfully made - was that considering the percentages of the Army officer population in the grade of captain or lower and the amount of combat going on - it would appear that the PlmO was not proportionately awarded to the line-doggies especially in comparison to aviators and submariners. If you push it to the next level - the awards to aviators would suggest a truly Imperial award distributed with little regard to home of record. When looking directly at ground component company grade officers - one finds a very different picture - only two awards - one to Rommel and one to Schorner. Clearly great distinctions. Relative to the aviators - the PlmO was very sparcely awarded to ground component junior officers and effectively not at all to other than Prussian contingents. This effectively promotes the HHOX for ground component officers to a very significant award indeed. The best a non-Prussian could hope for and by the numbers a huge distinction even for Prussians.

Paul,

Actually Manfred von Richthofen held all three as well.

Per O'Connor - several aviators held two of the three.

wem

Thats amazing!

Thanks for showing these examples Claudio! i would never have beleived it if i hadn't seen it!

three of the Hanseatic crosses on one bar? how could this happen?

I am pertubed by this...

Cheers,

Paul

I'm betting on Nassau & hoping to win a prize!

The medal would suffice...

If not - thanks for posting regardless, Claudio.

Thanks, Claudio, this should develop into a very interesting thread. I'm curious what was the small state that was absorbed by Prussia after 1866?

Now I have to go root around in my stuff to see if I have anything that meets your unique requirements.

On the vocabulary expansion axis - allow me to add that RAMF can alternately become REMF where the "E" equals echelon. A term used derisively by us combat hero types in Viet Nam and with pride by the REMFs who were rather proud of their survival odds...

Paul, you shouldn't say things like that about Rick. He gets all gooey like a slug in a rain storm and he becomes difficult to deal with fantasizing his own omnipotence and lesser god-like qualities...

Since it was the entry level award of the RAO I assumed it was for an NCO perhaps a staffer. Staffers, be they officer or enlisted, are sometimes referred to as horseholders or strap hangers (as in commuting by train). Rick's term for these folks is Lounge Lizard but I call them staff rats or RAMFS (which is too crude for a gentlemen's forum).

I have my pictures somewhat organized and will begin to honor your request at long last.

Question Guy Again?

Since we speak of Anhalt, I?ve a question that came to mind when Claudio referred to the ?Anhalt Friedrich's cross 2nd class?. The obvious question is ? was there really a first class? I?ve heard it referred to in catalogues such as Nimmergut and in Neal O?Connor?s volume two, it (first class) was listed amongst the awards to Sachsenberg & Osterkamp but other trusted resources have suggested ? that while minted, it was never awarded and that the listing for both Pour le M?rite aviators came from the faulty recollection of Onkle Theo which showed a precise duplication of awards for both aviators.

A penny for your thoughts. Was there an actual authorized 1st class & therefore a 2nd class or simply the Friedrich Cross commonly known as 2nd class?

I suggest, just as in scuba-diving, have a "collecting buddy" who is able and willing to "translate" your collection, and know what should go with what and what DOES go with what.

I'll can help you out, Rick old pal!

In fact - why not send your stuff over now just in case...

Never know when some bird of prey might get ya!

Oh oh!

Now you've gone and set off Mr Danner - I just know it...!

Landsknechte,

Gotta hand it to you ? that?s a real ?looker? ? beautiful!

Just to prove that my prescription requires a higher dosage, might I throw out another personal favorite ? Mecklenburg?s Griffin Order ? something about the red enamel & strikingly simple and elegant design that has always touched my fancy.

Welcome aboard the board Daniel.

Must admit that the concept of exploding pink dinosaurs is a bit troubling but charming... just love things that go boom!

So what is it about Henries???

St. Hank is also exceedingly high on my list too!

Think we're out of Henries!

Then there was Henry VIII - better not go there...

That is very pretty and one of my favorites but at the risk of being a pain - I must nominate Hank the Lion!

Pix anyone?

Rick - thank you for all your labor on this - I will enjoy referring to this act of generosity for a long time. Christophe's listings also greatly appreciated. Thanks to you both!

Dam still holding???

Think Uxbridge cancelled school today due to flooding issues.

Per O'Connor - typically - the Prussians and the Bavarians were squabbling and this amounted to a quid pro quo.

There was a fair amount of petty bickering between the two lead states of the empire and this was one result.

I just went back through this thread and came across Stogieman's first post. Does anyone know why Manfred vonRichtofen was refused this award?

Excellent!

How did you know that I was thinking about this list too???

Thank you very much for sharing this.

I want to be sure that Rick hears - publically - how appreciated this list is.

Thanks Rick!!!

This is too good! Go Rick!!!

I think I've died & gone to heaven (or at least Heidelburg).

Rick,

I seem to recall reading on some other website (which I know doesn't necessarily make it true) that if a MMJO ritter had two ancestors who were also knights, then the title was hereditary. Was that information bogus?????????????

I too have seen this in print and I too can not readily identify the source but can assure you that it was print not electronic - wait - it comes back to me...

It was Werlich's "Orders & Decorations of All Nations".

Oh boy! Am I ever enjoying this thread!

So how did Karl Georg slip into the list?

As to Steiner - I recall O'Connor mentioning him - on a par with Immelmann's Commander II of the MSHO. Steiner must have been some stud - platoon leader in the assault troops if my recall is correct. That's remarkable recognition for an Infantryman and an LT too boot! In my estimation - that's recognition a notch above that given even Manfred von Richthofen.

Really good stuff and thanks!

Any chance of fleshing out information on the "other four"?

I am curious - is there any controversy on the 6 versus 7 count? Do Bayerns Goldenes Ehrenbuch and Virtuti Pro Patria. agree? I?ve been coached to consider Virtuti to be the definitive resource but unfortunately I own neither book. (Would love to change that statement some day!) I know Klietmann puts the number at 7.

A truly significant award of great interest to me personally.

During the First World War, various sources state that either 6 or 7 awards of the Knight's Cross were awarded to non-Bavarians.

In discussion with the venerable Mr. Research several years ago, Rick listed the names, ranks and duty positions of these personnel and I have managed to lose the information.

As I recall, the less famous - non-naval recipients were all General Staff officers.

Could any of our membership provide the list?

Nerger, Dohna-Schlodien and Weddigen really require no further identification due to their notoriety however the others seem to regularly get lost in the pages of history.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

wem

That's an impressive number of awards for an Oberleutnant.

Much as fighter pilots - U-boot commanders were "darlings" and medal magnets.

If you do the numbers you can very quickly see that the poor grunts of comparable rank were not treated nearly as lavishly. My initial impression was that the PlmO was a Prussian award used to reward all the empire's heroic young officers. Sure seems to be such when focusing on the aviators but if you look at infantry soldiers in the grade of Hauptmann or lower you will find only two non-Prussians serving in non-Prussian units so honored and they are both pictured in this thread and both (coincidently) rose to Generalfeldmarshall in WWII. Guess viewpoint is a function of altitude...

Bob!

I think I'm in love - that is one great bar!

And I thought that Stogie was asking about clean underwear...

...and what this lacks in rarity it makes up in pretty.

Hey Dave!

Welcome to this little corner of the world! Glad to see you here. Hope you will enjoy yourself here.

Rick,

Good for you!

Now you can sleep!

Very nice.

wem

Check out this link for details (in German) of a massive collection theft. Text and pictures to be found at this location:

https://www.weitze.net/d/diebstahl.htm

I'm at a loss for words!