W McSwiggan

Excellent point Doc - Opened mouth-inserted foot on that one. Research before you leap is normally my motto and I blew that one!

http://www.korean-war.com/

Allow me to offer (in penance) the above link to a nice site addressing these things.

Per that site, THE NETHERLANDS DETACHMENT UNITED NATIONS (NDVN) was never larger than a battalion (-) necessitating reinforcement with KATUSA to fill to battalion strength. This unit was assigned to the 38th U.S. Infantry Regiment "Rock of the Maine", 2nd "Indianhead" US Infantry Division after arriving in Korea.

Makes CIB a possibility and I stand corrected - thanks Doc.

Rufus

Actually, that was my first thought, but then I remembered that some Dutch and Belgian units were actually assigned to US units (e.g. the Belgians to the 3rd ID). If he was in the Dutch Army then, he might have legitimately gotten it for the Korean War. Doc

Disregard this reply as originally stated - see Doc's correct call in following reply.

Way to be Doc!

Hate leaving bogus information out there for propagation!

Erwin

I can't resist so I will speculate that BTN1 is really BTRY hence Service Battery - each FA Bn has one.

2/19 FA translates to Second Battalion, 19th Field Artillery - no question about that.

I could speculate but would rather not SVC and BTN1

That's a start at least.

Erwin

Hello ,

I am about to sell some us items i would like to know please the meaning of the lettering inside a helmet. As follows Micheal w boerner 2/19 FA SVC BTN1 if anyone could help with information i would be most grateful.

Regards David (H)

Why do you think he changed his name from John to James?

Remember - this guy was an officer no later than 1964 per Doc's serial number revelation.

During Vietnam there was no aviation branch.

All branches could fly - most damaging their careers by so doing.

MSC, TC and Armor were the branches to be in if an aviator as they had proponency over aspects of Army Aviation. The other branches were not happy to have their highly trained branch qualified officers off having fun in flying machines. I personally know a senior aviator in the grade of Major with every bravery medal except the Medal of Honor who was instructed by his branch (FA) to either get out of the cockpit or get out of Artillery. He propmtly transferred to Armor and saved his career.

Signal had activities involving ir traffic control and air space management. This plus his NSC name plate suggests an option as likely as MSC.

Please note that senior wings required 7 years of operational flying in addition to other requirements.

Heave on top of that the Master Parachute Wings and you are looking at some substantial time...

He could easily be a combat arms officer who transferred to aviation upon the branch creation if he was still around at that time.

I need to suggest that when you are seeking help that you provide facts and not speculation - the MSC proposal is speculative and could easily lead a helper up the wrong path. Translating NSC into any one of the other alternatives is equally troublesome.

While I'm sure that the NSC will not talk to you - perhaps the Soldier Care Center at the Natick Labs, Massachusetts would.

Good luck but as stated earlier - finding this guy is going to be a stretch especially if you change his name.

Wolfgang

Good point Doc!

News from Bob Ampula at the MSC -

The Medical Service Corps so far only has reference to a James P.Brennan, 2LT in 1970. This was from their Stud Book, which only liststheir location at the time. They are going to send an inquiry to the Silver Caduceus Society to see if anyone knows of him.

I hope this is him.

Doc,

That's the beauty of this club - plenty of opportunity to learn from each other!

Having personally experienced the flip-flop from "OF" to socials, I felt good about that time-line. The morph to "OF" was unknown to me - good to know.

Thanks,

Ned

Gustav, Thanks for the information on when the Officer corps went to SSAN. I know that the Army started the conversion for enlisted personnel in about 1967, and during 67 and 68 dog tags had both the SSAN and the Army Serial Number on them. By the time I was commissioned in 71, we were all on SSAN.

I don't think your comment about the OF serial number is accurate-- The OF prefixes don't seem to have come into use until after the years in which I think these dogtags were produced. OF wasn't used until about 1964, by which time the Tetanus year on the tag was gone. Therefore, I would not have expected him to have an OF number. Doc

I do not have published references for the Korean War Order of Battle but I have found what appears to be a good one on the web. Good enough that is perfectly replicated in the Wikipedia...

Some one is cheating but who???

At any rate the information on this web-site looks very reliable to my eye. At the web-site home page you can see that they have all sorts of good stuff - take a look.

http://www.korean-war.com/187airborne.html

Jake

Also does anyone the battle order and commanders of the 187th reg combat team in Korea??

Thanks

Chris

Actually - officer serial numbers went from those shown to social security in 1969.

I was commissioned in June of 1969 and was given an "OF" number (indicating Regular Army commission not reserve) and a matching ID card & Dog Tags.

As I recall - we flip flopped to social security numbers in September but could be mistaken - remember being peeved about wasting brain cells memorizing my old "OF" number... (less to burn later with alcohol).

Because he is not "OF" then he is not RA and hence will not be found in the West Point register.

Because of the "NSC" on his leather name tag, he could be any number of branches depending on which NSC he was assigned to but I guessing because of his vintage that it was the Natick Labs - the center for design and testing of soldier individual equipment right here in good old Massachusetts.

As Doc stated - Army is very tight fisted about personal information. This guy may remain a mystery.

Gustav

None of my stuff was named but then - I didn't get a Purple Heart... (DFC, BSM & Lotsa Air Medals).

I think naming was done at personal whim & expense during that time or... you were dead and they might have engraved the next of kin presentation set.

From the Top -

Errors noted - both leather flight suit name plate and insignia indicate Seniot ARMY Aviator as noted and the highest award shown is the Distinguished Flying Cross not the Silver Star. Three stars on campaign ribbon do not necessarily imply three tours - could but could be just one - stars were based on service in theater during the dates of campaigns - one tour during a very busy time could generate 3 (June 67 to June 68 would net 3 stars and 1 January 68 to 1 January 69 would get 5 for example).

NSC - I suspect the good Colonel was using license to do as he pleased on this tag. Nurse Corps was not abbreviated NSC, highly unlikely he would have screwed up the spelling when ordering the tag. Usually branch was placed in this position however - often - my own in case - US Army was used as the flight suits were the same for the Air Force and Navy as well as Army. There were two agencies Network Service Center (electronic) and Natick Soldier Center often referred to as the Natick Labs that would use this abbreviation - I think Natick is most likely due to age and rank of COL B.

How did a senior officer spend significant time in Vietnam as an Aviator, win a DFC but no Bronze Star and only one Air Medal??? Strange unless this was a case of an old - out of date rack that the Colonel simply discarded and built a new one from scratch. Given what I see - that is my suspicion and thie rack is one he wore early in a second tour in country. I think there is reason to doubt that he was a colonel at the time he actually wore this bar.

I am speculating and could easily be wrong but that is my reasoned assessment of what you have shown.

ROTC = Reserve Officer Training Corps. That is a path to commissioning normally leading to a reserve commission. The program is conducted at civilian institutions (colleges/universities) and is concurrent with the normal program of studies. It also includes summer training. Each college has a faculty of active duty officers responsible for the military instruction of the cadets in the program. The senior officer - normally a Lieutenant Colonel is the Professor of Military Science (PMS).

Erwin

Perhaps I can help.

The 187th Regimental Combat Team (Rakkasans) was an organization built around the 187th Parachute Infantry Regiment. The regiment was augmented with artillery, air defense artillery, engineers, quartermaster, maintenance and medical units to allow independent operation and deployment. They were stationed in Japan under the command of then Brigadier General William Westmoreland during the Korean Conflict. The team was deployed to participate in the Inchon landings and later made several successful airborne assaults in Korea.

The regimental combat team concept bridged the tactical organization concepts from regiments & combat commands to modern brigades of combined arms teams.

Oswald

If we are in fact talking about a metal insignia, it is worn by personnel assigned to all 3rd Armored Division units that are not authorized distinctive unit insignia in their own right (Band, Military Police, Division Headquarters, Brigade Headquarters and the like) as opposed to Infantry, Armor, Cavalry, Artillery, Signal, Engineers, Aviation, Mainenance, Support & Transportation (Service), Medical and Air Defence all of which do have their own DUI.

If it is the cloth shoulder patch, it is worn by all personnel assigned to the division and units assigned (not attached) to the division.

Ludwig

Just got mine today and am pleased to have it.

This will be a very useful addition to my library answering many questions I was too shy to ask.

Thanks Joe for researching and writing this book.

Oh Boy!

Been watching this one grow!

And now it's grown!

Will be adding to collection posthaste.

Good thread - thanks all.

Should have remembered the Tom Jones pix...

Hi,

It is my understanding that subsequent to the initial granting of insignia, the knights also petitioned for a neck badge as well. I also understand that this was granted and that the insignia is essentially a smaller scale version of the "star" that is suspended from a neck ribbon (color unknown to me).

Anyone have examples or illustrations to show?

wem

One of the oldest types of Knighthood , King Henry 3rd. created Knight Bachelors in the 11th. century. He reigned from 1207 to 1272. This was the period that knights - who had to be Gentlemen - fought on horseback and most European Countries created them.

The lowest Gentleman was an Esquire - and had to own a given area of land. As boys they were 'apprenticed' to knights to learn how to be a gentleman and how to handle weapons - they became known as Squires.

Knight Bachelors may be the oldest, but they rank lower then the Orders of Knighthood - e.g. Garter; Thistle; Bath, etc.. They do not have the status of the Orders and do not have the initials of the order after their name. On occasions when they need to show they have a knighthood, they can use Kt.. Most of them in modern days are politicians or, ex chairmen of the gas board...

Until 1926 there was no insignia for them to wear - however, there is an Association of Knight Bachelors and they petitioned King George 5th. , who in 1926 had a badge created for them to wear on formal occasions.

There have been three versions over the years - but, the one shown here is hallmarked for London 1926 , and is therefore, in that rare first group issued. Made of silver, the centre is of red enamel and all of the gold parts are gilt. The badge shows a cross hilted sword, suspended from a belt. (Hence the expression - a belted knight or, a belted Earl ) On either side are spurs - with the rowels at the top.

These of course represented the accroutrements of a Knight 700 years ago and , it was death to wear them if you were not entitled.

I have looked back through the index and can find no ref. to Knights' Badges - over the years there must have been others ?

I hope others can add to this post - Knighthood,as in Chivalry - is a wonderful subject.

This soldier is most likely from the 5. Th?ringisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 94 (Gro?herzog von Sachsen) (IR94).

The EKI is not all that special to me.

The stand-out is the Wilhelm-Ernst Kriegskreuz! Beyond that ? two grades of the Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen mit Bandschnalle und Schwertern is also an exceptional level of recognition in my estimation.

Got mine!

A real treasure!

Thanks guys for preserving this information and making the book happen.

Your efforts were worth far more than you charged!

Extrapolating information posted at the US Army Institute of Heraldry.

?Subsequent to 24 May 1965 (shortly after the deployment of the 173rd Airborne Brigade as the first brigade or higher unit in country) the requirement for at least 30 consecutive days in a combat zone? was established ?provided all other requirements have been met.?

I should add that soldiers assigned to infantry unit positions that would normally qualify for the CIB (Platoon Leaders, Company Commanders, etc) could also be awarded the CIB if "contact" and "in country" requirements were met. This allowed personnel from branches detailed to infantry assignments (with MACV Advisory duty with infantry, airborne units or with US line units) to earn the badge as well. I often thought it strange to see armor officers wearing the CIB but given the small armor "boot print" in country and the many armor types detailed infantry and performed as infantry, to my way of thinking, these awards were perfectly justified.

Re: CIB wondering...

If you read the fine print on the Army Web Site relating to the CIB, you will note that it states that specific requirements were established for various conflicts.

I claim no direct knowledge about conflicts other than Vietnam and in that case, my statement is based on recall. What I recall is that not only did the recipient need to be serving in an infantry capacity and of the appropriate rank - he needed a period of time (measured in weeks or months as I recall) to qualify - not simply a single contact.

Now - if a specific number of contacts was required, I do not know.

I do not know if adjustments were made for WIA/KIA in Vietnam.

Cheers guys, interesting this whole ethos thing with regards to CIB/CMB/CAB, in days of old where US forces were engaged againest a set piece enemy, it all seemed to be cut and ry. But now with the current circumstances in Iraq & Afghanistan, well maybe not so much Afghanistan as the Taliban seem to be still standing and fighting, but I digress. What I`m trying to say is that a unit could deploy to Iraq, never see an insurgent, but getting to the max day after day, I assume then that none of them would qualify for any of these awards. The reason I make this point, is that I recently read an account of an IED attack, were a guy was awarded a purple heart, on the citation it said, `for wounds recieved in action` but it could be argued that the action lasted less than a few seconds. If they were recieved in action as stated in the citation, it would be interesting to know if he got a CIB? If so did the rest of his squad who were uninjuried get CIBs as well, did the medics who arrived shortly afterwards, treated and evacuated him get CMBs?

Doc,

The CAB is the "everyone else award" to recognize performance of duty under fire but not qualifying for CIB or CMB. Also not restricted to rank or unit echelon - note General Petreus wears one and his first combat tour was CG, 101 Abn during OIF.

It is an official award. Actually not that bad an idea as it stops the multiplication of such awards - "Hey whattabout Arty, Armor, Aviation, etc?"

Some have been critical of the design but folk seem to be adjusting.

wem

CIB and CMB are NOT "tour" awards. You must have been engaged in ground combat with an armed enemy at a certain unit level. (e.g. Division Staff are not normally eligible), but I have not kept up on the current requirements. I don't know anything about the CAB (I don't even know what it is... The old unofficial "Combat Armor Badge"????).

There are basically three requirements for award of the CIB. The soldier must be an infantryman satisfactorily performing infantry duties, must be assigned to an infantry unit during such time as the unit is engaged in active ground combat, and must actively participate in such ground combat. Campaign or battle credit alone is not sufficient for award of the CIB. (1) A soldier must be an Army infantry or special forces officer (SSI 11 or 18) in the grade of colonel or below, or an Army enlisted soldier or warrant officer with an infantry or special forces MOS, who subsequent to 6 December 1941 has satisfactorily performed duty while assigned or attached as a member of an infantry, ranger or special forces unit of brigade, regimental, or smaller size during any period such unit was engaged in active ground combat.

(2) A recipient must be personally present and under hostile fire

while serving in an assigned infantry or special forces primary duty,

in a unit actively engaged in ground combat with the enemy. The

unit in question can be of any size smaller than brigade.

The CMB requirements are similar. For details, see AR 600-8-22, which is available on the web. Doc

Oops - that he survived was pretty obvious, huh?

I've seen a number of images of mini-chains with representations of the EKI whereas this one does not. I am making the assumption (and only an assumption) that he was not an EKI recipient. I find this interesting. I know that the Hohenzollern often fell prey to intramural wrangling between Prussia and Bavaria (one case was that of Ritter von Schleich while all the other PlM/MMJO double recipients did receive it) but I was not aware of such cases extending to the EKI.

Thanks for the nice words.

Obviously L?ll survived the war because there are 3 documents dated after WWI (Kyffh?user KDM 1926, FEK 1935 and Wound Badge 1936).

Yes, it is very strange that the Iron Cross 1st class didn't come with the group; that doesn't mean that he didn't receive it... That could be researchable with the Kriegsarchiv in M?nchen.

Ciao,

Claudio

Great collection!

Interesting that he won MVO and later with Kr. but no indication on mini of the EKI.

Looks as though he survived the war from the list shown at link. Wonder why he was not an EKI recipient.

Was this common in Bavarian formations (especially for reservists)?

Another example of aristocratic infighting?

Look what I found... interesting!!!

The list of the casualties of the 1. FAR "Prinzregent Luitpold"

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/Verlustliste...bay_far_wk1.htm

Yup - possibilities almost infinite!

For those of us who continued serving, changing order of mounting on this type rack is quite simple.

Could have been enlisted who went direct commission or OCS before being entitled to second Good Conduct. Could have been "prior service" USMA type. Could have been Basic, AIT, OCS officer. Could have been enlisted veteran who simply adjusted his old rack later. Could have gone National Guard or Reserve after active duty and not qualified for indicative awards. Might even have simply discarded this rack for a new one upon award of additional stuff. Only thing we can say with a degree of certainty is this bar is not "as worn" during the Vietnam era. We'll never know.

I've seen the Purple Heart ribbon worn in the incorrect position probably almost as frequently as I've seen it in the correct position. The ribbons and devices all look like they're correct for the Vietnam period. The lack of multiple GCMs could mean the soldier served as an enlisted man for 3 to 5 years and then got out, or he was an officer commissioned from the ranks. No way of telling which, though.