W McSwiggan

Nothing to contribute other than this has always been one of my favorites.

Find it particularly amusing as the British monarchs used to use this order to demonstrate their prerogatives by bestowal on British subjects.

Not that this thread is targeting this the rarified ranks of generals but... just to round it out -

a general may remain on active duty up to 40 year of cumulative service or five years in grade whichever is later or a maximum age of 64 by regulation. 5 stars of which we are fresh out - remain on active duty for life.

Currently - the last man standing from the West Point Class of 1969 is General William (Scott) Wallace, Commanding General of TRADOC. He lead the charge across southern Iraq to Saddam's house as V Corps Commander wearing 3 stars.

File under "fun facts"

von Watter per Hamelman

158. von Watter, Frhr. Theodor,

General of Infantry, Commander, XIII, Army Corps.

(Awarded the Pour le Merite Order in recognition of outstanding leadership and distinguished military planning and successful operations during fighting along the Yser canal in stopping the British during their first Somme offensive.)

Direct quotation from The History of the Prussian Pour le Merite Order, Volume III, 1888 - 1918 by William E. Hamelman (page 463).

I own all three volumes and find them useful. I can not testify to the author's reputation. The volumes were published by Matthaus Publishers, P.O. Box 1361, Dallas, TX 75221, 1986.

I bought my copies from the Toy Soldier - a small book store and military miniature shop outside the gates of West Point (Highland Falls, NY). On my last contact with them, they stated that they no longer deal in books.

I read this thread with interest.

I do not want to sidetrack this thread but offer this anecdote that some may find of interest.

Hunyadi cites the small contingent of Hungarians.

A feature of the Paris Peace talks was the creation of the International Commission of Control and Supervision (ICCS). This organization was composed of personnel from four nations, Hungary, Poland, Canada and Indonesia. The ICCS was organized into regional teams in order to supervise the cease-fire and the return of captured personnel (partial list of responsibilities). This group worked in parallel with the Joint Military Commission (JMC) which was comprised of representatives of the Viet Cong, North Vietnamese Military, South Vietnamese Military and the US Military. Both groups had independent aviation support provided by the US complete with distinctive markings on their aircraft.

The final weeks of my tour in Vietnam were spent flying UH-1H helicopters in support of the ICCS from Tan Son Nhut, Saigon. This represented a major change for others and me. Overnight I went from Combat Cobra Pilot to flying bus driver. What didn?t change was our tendency to hang out at the officers? club bar and tell war stories. We were easily identified by our location (hanging on to the bar) and combat unit shoulder insignia. Curiously, we were instantly popular with the Hungarian and Polish members of the ICCS who freely bought drinks and listened intently to our endless war stories. They often asked questions such as ?What did you do about the SA-7 missiles?? or ?How did you avoid the (insert favorite caliber here) anti-aircraft fire??

Interestingly, one of their first buddies was not a combat pilot but a flight-suit wearing Air Force Counter-Intelligence guy. Shortly thereafter, the word was circulated to avoid the Polish and Hungarians like the plague as approximately 50% were known Soviet KGB members! Apparently there was keen interest in the AA weapons performance and countermeasures on the part of ?someone??

We of course were greatly disappointed as a wonderful audience and significant supply of alcohol became ?verboten?!

Picked this up today because of several factors. The "story" goes - and is plausable that a member of the small (about 150) delegation of Hungarian soldiers that were sent to Vientam to supervise the cease fire and to help with the demolition of mines and unexploded devices. In the program two Hungarians lost their lives. Sadly all that I know is that the member who apparently got these medals was a captain. He brought back these RVN medals as well as some US medals of Vietnam era production. As I dont know much about these medals I am posting them - all of these fall under the 'in courntry' quality of manufacture as they are all very rough in quality, not like the US manufactured ones. So here is what I call my 'instant' collection of RVN ODMs...

First off I laughed when I saw them and then found out what folks are asking for these on the net..

1) Distinguished Service Cross Navy 1st class

2) Distinguished Service Cross Army 1st class

3) Distinguished Service Cross Army 2nd class

Almost got it right - not sure I understand the logic in the regulation however you can wear only one from group #1 (group includes CIB, EIB & CAB) and one from group #2 (group includes CMB & EMB).

This translates into CIB & CMB or CAB & CMB but not CAB & CIB...

Right I think that sorts that out...?? Interesting that a medic attached to the SF would get a CIB & not a CMB?

Also that you could wear the CAB & CMB/CIB?

I have reviewed AR 670-1 & AR 600-8-22.

The Awards for the Combat Infantry & Combat Medical Badges are consistent one to the other.

One award only is authorized for the periods ? WWII (1941-45), Korea (1950-53), Vietnam Era Conflicts (1961-95 through Somalia) & War on Terror beginning with Afghanistan including the two Iraqi conflicts with no end date established.

The Combat Action Badge is recently established and applies only to the last period.

These groupings dictate eligibility for multiple awards.

There is provision for a soldier to win all three and wear two of the three if one is the CMB. All three must involve engagement with the enemy. If more than one combat badge is awarded it must be for different service assignments - not simultaneous.

Generals are not eligible for the CIB or CMB.

Special Forces Medical MOS personnel are eligible to exchange CMB for CIB for action subsequent to September '01 until June '06. After June '06, SF Medical personnel (MOS 18D) will be eligible for the CIB but not the CMB.

CIB relates to assignment to Infantry units to include Special Forces, Infantry Squads of ground cavalry organizations and the like. Officers (other than infantry) on ?temporary detail? to infantry units who meet all other criteria may be awarded the CIB.

A soldier may wear a maximum of 5 badges of varying types as follows:

Either CIB, EIB or CAB

and

Either CMB or EMB

and

One from Astronaut, Aviator, Flight Surgeon, Aviation (formerly flight crew), Explosive Ordnance

and

Up to 3 from Glider, Parachutist, Pathfinder, Free Fall, Air Assault, Ranger & Special Forces

and

Up to 2 from the Diver, Driver, Mechanic, Rigger group.

A maximum of 3 badges may be worn on the pocket flap of the dress uniform including marksmanship badges.

Phew - I think I have a headache!

A bit presumptuous to assume that the multiple awards implies an award system out of control.

At times and in places it was but if you weren?t there then you most likely have no clue.

Compared to the Commonwealth countries ? the US was more liberal in its awards and there was clear potential for inflation. That said ? considering that the average US combat soldier in Vietnam saw significantly more combat in terms of time in contact than the average US combat soldier in WWII, I think it would be best to keep our judgements to ourselves. Not trying to be offensive but the spirit of this forum is to be gentlemanly and we could easily lapse if we maintain this tack.

As to Silver Star and DSC comment ? it was common practice to issue ?impact awards? for events so momentous that they required immediate recognition. The local approving authority could and on occasion did ? make immediate awards such as this. If the higher award was approved at a later date, the impact award was replaced by the higher. Silver Star upgraded to DSC or Medal of Honor was the most common of these uncommon events.

As to stars on the CIB - tour were not the determinant - wars were. My first platoon sergeant wore the CIB with two stars. He was an infantry combat veteran in WWII then Korea then Vietnam. Multiple tours in Vietnam did not entitle one to stars nor did a tour in the Dominican Republic then Vietnam.

As to the more recent conflicts - I will defer to others as I can not testify to the regulations.

Curious about the Iraq award, how can it be issued revoked and then re issued? I also assume that a `combat injury`, has to be something that the enemy have fired at you? American awards seem to be so fickle with no rule of thumb... I`m currently reading a book (Right Face)where by the author claims to have been awarded the Silver Star promoted to 1st Lt and put in for the DSC all for them same action. Another book I recently read (The Cage) the author claimed to have won the Silver Star & Bronze Star in a week!!!! In the UK you`d be lucky to get one medal at the end of your tour! Goin slightly off topic again, but what the score with CIB & CMB I`ve seen a lot recently with 1 & 2 stars on them, I understand the criteria for there award (I think), but how does the stars work..... I mean do you get one per tour in a combat zone, or like the above medals example could you be awarded a CIB badge on day then a week later get a star and so on? We also only get one campaign medal per tour, in the US you seem to get 2+...example Iraq & war on terror medal. Don`t get me wrong I think its great I wish we could come out of basic training with 2 medals, do a tour and come home with 5!! Thats really `Johnny come lately` stuff!!!

Casualty rates - combat varied with location and time. Tet '68 & '69 saw major aggressive operations on the part of the VC/NVA as did the April Offensive in '72 not to mention Khe Sahn in I Corps. Beyond that - search and destroy operations designed to maintain initiative were a steady diet for the combat formations of the Marine Corps and Army. Airmobile operations were a significant component of these operations; hence all the Air Medals.

As to medals. All soldiers on active duty were entitled to the National Defense Service Medal during those years and beyond. Time in theater was recognized by the Vietnam Service Medal with campaign stars as appropriate. After 6 months in country, the Government of South Vietnam issued its campaign medal. A wide range of medals was available to recognize soldiers. Heroism (I confine my comments to the Army) - low to high - Army Commendation Medal with "V", Air Medal with "V" (aerial operations only), Bronze Star Medal with "V" (ground operations only), Soldier's Medal (Non-combat heroism), Distinguished Flying Cross (aerial operations only), Silver Star, Distinguished Service Cross and Medal of Honor. As is the case in almost all armies, officers tended to get more "attention" than enlisted ranks even though none of the awards for valor are rank restricted.

Meritorious service awards showed pronounced patterns based on rank. Because award authority was delegated downward (normally to the lowest General Officer Command), policies were subject to variation. Again, rank and award tended to correspond and with some justification considering the level of responsibility that normally goes with increased rank. Often the awards became "semi-automatic" and those receiving higher awards often (but not universally) received the lower awards as well. In my experience, the approximate break out, by rank was: Distinguished Service Medal for Generals, Legion of Merit for Colonels and Lieutenant Colonels, Bronze Stars for Majors to Sergeants and Army Commendation Medals to other ranks.

I should mention that the Bronze Star medal could only be awarded for meritorious service in-country and the Meritorious Service Medal was strictly for service out of theater. The others were allowed in either mode.

Bottom line, an Infantry Sergeant or above who completed a normal tour would most likely wear at least 5 ribbons - Bronze Star, Air Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Vietnam Service Medal and Vietnam Campaign Medal.

Probably created more confusion/controversy that clarity with this but I hope it gives some perspective.

Cheers Guys, thats really interesting.

I also hadn`t taken into consideration that the regular servicemen might have to do numerous tours over there, in the same way as they do today in Iraq & Afganistan. I wonder what the most time spent over there by a single combat soldier was. Surely it would come to the point where you`ve really pushed you luck !!!

I assume that the casualty rates during the Vietnam war where a steady flow, or did it peak and trough? I`m just wondering if you could land a lucky tour, where not a great deal happened. I assume the chances of returning without seeming any combat were minimal.

Am I also right in thinking that most guys returned with some sort of medal or other?

Mariner

124 Air medals?!?!? What is the story on that man?

I do not know the individual but...

1. Aviators were restricted in the number of hour they could fly in a 30 day period. Because of this, the most Air Medals possible in a single normal (12 month) tour (not including "with V") would be about 60 if exclusively involved in combat operations as was the case with air cavalry, ARA and many other units. This also assumes no R&R. Few actually flew for much in excess of 1000 hours in a tour in my experience making the arithmetic max 40.

2. Aviators were cycled in and out of Vietnam at one of if not the highest rates of all. Practically one year in country followed by a year home then back again.

3. I was an Air Cav Troop cobra pilot and received 34 in about 11 months.

4. Leads me to the easy conclusion that "Mr 124" was a multiple tour (most likely 3 or 4) aviator.

Interesting that we've wandered off the Purple Heart to Air Medals. Oh well - thread wandering happens.

At any rate, I hold 34 Air Medals - mix of "Merit" for hours and Valor. I do not consider myself particularly special amongst my peers. If the ribbon or medal has a V on it (I'm speaking from the Army perspective), then some or all are for valor with no way of telling the ratio without asking.

Awards for hours depended on type of mission. 25 hours of Combat Assault time got a medal. 50 hours of Combat Support. 100 hours of Combat Servive Support.

Infantrymen involved in Airmobile Assaults received Air Medals after a number of CAs but I do not recall the number.

My rack is posted in the "Post Your Own" thread. Again - nothing special but illustrates the proper wear for those curious.

As I recall the esteemed Senator and former Presidential candidate from Massachusetts was rotated out of Vietnam for having been awarded three Purple Hearts. I can not say if this was by regulation or Department of the Navy policy. It was a bit of a talking point and became rather contentious. The "Swift Boat" veterans were particularly vocal and unsupportive...

I will leave my personal feelings a mystery in an attempt to avoid subsequent political rantings from both sides.

From what I understand - today you cant get more than two oak leaf clusters in a conflict beofre you get sent home...

Hi all & thanks - very interesting replies by all.

Bottom line appears to be "You'll never know"!

Drat!

Regards,

wem

I doubt there were ever enough of these for there to have BEEN any "official" model.

While a PLM could as soon have been awarded to an insanely brave 2nd Lt as to a Field Marshal, OAKLEAVES virtually always went to Generals and full Colonels for continued success in command positions. I may have missed a young General Staff Major oakleaf recipient or such, but generally an Oakleaves winner was going to be either side of 50

making any such person roughly

100 years old to have been eligible for a crown TO the oakleaves.

So not the sort of thing that sat around in stock at the Orders Chancery, I'd have thought.

How many can there have ever been?

Interesting observation but?

What if your young Leutnant continued his career and later received the oak leaves?

Would he not have been eligible for the crown on the anniversary of his original award, perhaps at the age of 70 to 75?

Of course, I am speculating that this was not as rare as a 40ish Major reaching his 90ish birthday following his award (rare as this was for majors). Could turn into a project for me at some point however I remain curious as to the correctness of Nimmergut versus Previtera.

No regulations out there?

I have found a contradiction between Previtera?s Prussian Blue and Nimmergut?s Deutschland-Katalog 2001/2002 Orden & Ehrenzeichen 1800-1945.

Previtera states that holders of the oak leaves for 50 years were awarded and entitled to wear a crown to commemorate this anniversary. This should come as no surprise as it is consistent with provisions made for the holders of the order without oak leaves.

The issue is that Previtera implies (perhaps I misinterpret his meaning) on page 87 that these devices were to be worn in series ? one above the other and does not suggest which should take precedence. Nimmergut on the other hand illustrates a device with the crown superimposed on the oak leaves.

Can anyone explain this apparent contradiction? Are both correct for this rare combination or is one in error? Can anyone cite a primary source on this?

Rick - can't resist - please put me in for one of each.

Regards,

wem

His reply would be of great interest to me if you would be so kind to share it with us.

As stated, I remain skeptical about his figures? veracity.

wem

These stats are quite intersesting. I always would have throught that there would be very few awarded in 1914 as the award was still handed out on a conservative basis (and the war was less than a half a year). I've always been under the impression that they were handed out pretty liberally late in the war (as with the 1939 EK in 44 and 45). I agree that 1915 would have generally been a dry year and things picked up in 1916 with the major battles at Verdun and the Somme.

I have emailed Mr. Previtera for some insight on his source(s). His stat of 13,000 NC crosses seems to be universally accepted (and I'm pretty sure most of these were awarded after the war). Also, I am surprised that the number of post war combattant awards is not higher (as in the 1918 wound badge).

While I?m at it ? he claims the following for EKI:

1914 = 3,784

1915 = 16,506

1916 = 19,989

1917 = 23,262

1918 = 22,254

Post War = 54,154

Non Combat = 5,075

Total =145,024

Per Privitera:

EKII

1914 ? 174,220

1915 ? 758,640

1916 ? 896,380

1917 ? 907,144

1918 ? 854,000

Post War ? 200,000

Non-combat ? 13,000

Total: 3,803,384

I just bought the book and have not read it in depth as of now. That said, it is not apparent to me what his sources are.

Frankly, I am suspicious?

Would be intereted to see the numbers, and the source.

best

Chris

Per O'Connor, Volume 7 - this award was widely awarded to personnel who were not Mecklenburgers and were not affiliated with Grand Duchy's contingents. He could not find reliable information in the form of rolls indicating numbers of awards.

Hello,

In regards towards the above mentioned award, is it known howmuch where awarded for service during WWI?

It was the EK 2 equivalent from Mecklenburg, was it awarded purely towards Mecklenburg citizens or also towards citizens of other German states?

Cordial greetings + thank you in advance

Put simply - perhaps too simply - the Knight's Cross was created to fill the void left by the discontinuation of the Pour le Merite. As this was a Royal Prussian award directly connected to the aristocracy so disliked by Hitler - it went obsolete with the abdication and would be allowed to remain so along with the vast array of Imperial awards. Award criteria for the "PlM" & Knight's Cross were effectively the same at the beginning of the war. The first "upgrade" to the Knight's Cross was also parallel to the PlM in that they both here the addition of oak leaves to the ring. Award criteria were quite different however. Subsequent additions of swords and later diamonds followed patterns (design not intent) established by many Imperial awards sucn as the Prussian Red Eagle Order.

Rick,

Truly a thing of beauty not to mention volume!

We are indebted to you & Daniel.

Thank you for your efforts in preserving and making these data available.

wem

Unless the colors are not true - I believe the gold finish makes this a MVO3X.

To clarify - I hope - the war ribbon was normal for awards of both Red Eagle & Royal Crown Orders with swords for German nationals.

My understanding is that foreign recipients received awards "with swords" on statute ribbons.

Now a follow on question is - how were Austrians treated? I can not testify with certainty - perhaps Rick Research or another of our experts can enlighten - I hope so!

Normally it was awarded with the black ribbon with white stripes or a few with the white ribbon and black stripes. The iron crosses ribbons.

But during WWI a few decoration of the PRAOx and PKOx were awarded with the ribbon according to the regulation, i.e. for he PKO the blue one. In the certificates it is written ?am statutenm??igen Bande? . Some Turkish officers received it this way. So this combination is possible. If it was always like this you will never know.

Attended the Wake for 1LT Bacevich this weekend. KIA - Iraq - Mother's Day by suicide bomber.

His father - a distinguished officer - combat veteran of Vietnam & Iraq - Former commander of the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, retired Colonel (not LTC as so many of our lackluster media reporters have stated) - Professor at Boston University and outspoken critic of the Iraq war.

Contrast the Bacevich family and its sacrifice with this bozo...

Again - I am aghast. I will not engage in a rant but I am tempted.

Ed,

I acknowledge much of what you have said and respect your logic, attitude and right to your opinion.

That said, as one who wore that uniform or its antecedents for 32 years I must take exception to your position.

At issue here is not a sick personality although that may be a component.

What is at issue is friends, classmates and associates who wore that uniform and died in it. The reward for service this individual pretended was often scorn. Thankfully, those days seem past ? unfortunately too late for many damaged souls. They ? those who served ? do not deserve to share their honor with the likes of this man.

Furthermore ? this individual used his shameful masquerade for monetary profit.

I am well aware of the ludicrous nature of the ?stolen valor? act and the threat it poses to collectors but ? this individual deserves no pity. This individual dishonors those who served and deserves harsh consequences for his behavior. As stated earlier ? I prefer heavy doses of scorn and humiliation. If that is not to happen then throw the book ? any book - at him!

Respectfully,

wem

I know everyone is taking great hormonal joy in venting their wrath, but may I just say that I mainly feel sorry for this pitiful specimen. Frankly, I think ridicule is more appropriate than judicial punishment. Other countries (such as Australia) have taken this route with great success. Maybe Americans just like lawyers and punishment more than others do?

Moreover, the so-called "Stolen Valor" legislative abomination has nothing to do with this, other than it may have been the legal excuse. Old laws could have caught him in his "crime" just as easily. The new law has allowed some self-appointed "patriots", both in and out of Congress, to feel self-righteous by assaulting pitiful "Walter Mitty" wanna-bes and legitimate medal collectors alike.

I see little here to celebrate, much to pity, on all sides.