W McSwiggan

Personally - I'd just like heaps of shame for this jerk. Just look at him! Perhaps a court ordered round of speaking engagements at VFW halls, Army Posts - even better - how about a lightning tour of Iraq...

Blood is boiling - better stop now...

Looks like all the votes are in and quirkiness wins. Is anyone surprised?

As I understand it ? the following are the awards that Baden authorized for enlisted men during WWI in their order of precedence.

Golden Merit Medal of the Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order ? none actually awarded.

Silver Merit Medal of the Military Karl Friedrich Merit Order - ~1,200

Merit Cross of the Order of the Z?hringen Lion on the ribbon of the Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order ? (restricted to high ranking noncomissioned officers hence relatively small number of awards ? under 1,000).

Golden Merit Medal on the ribbon of the Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order ? none awarded.

Small Golden Merit Medal on the ribbon of the Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order ? ~400

Silver Merit Medal on the ribbon of the Military Karl-Friedrich Merit Order ? over 100,000.

Now for the obvious question ? why more awards of the highest award used (SVM-MKFVO) than the lower ranked Small Gold merit medal? Was it quirkiness or the ?G? word or what?

Greg - that is a somewhat cumbersome question. Most would need to run off to references to give a good answer and then we could spend even more time in confusing debate. I think you are best served by going to Dave Danner's excellent website as a start. Link follows below:

http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria/states.htm

Enjoy.

I hope this is correct and does not add to the confusion. Werlich indicates that the order of St. George was a near equivalent to the order of St. Hubert. "For outstanding services to the state by Roman Catholics (of noble birth). To me this picture implies one of two things - the subject is not a big wig or not noble. I do not know if Werlick is considered a reliable source on matters Imperial and I do not know if the "noble birth" clause was ever mitigated by high office such as the See of Munich. St. Michael was significantly lower in the pecking order than either of the two orders I've mentioned and the Bavarian Crown as well I think.

Wow - this is a tremendous effort and contribution to the community of historians and collectors. Thank you!

Excellent Dave - rushed right over to see and was delighted. Your site remains one of the finest on-line resources in my estimation. Thank you for doing this.

wem

I have created a new page, just for Bavarian knightly orders. My current Bavarian page, like the other pages, focuses mainly on military decorations. However, Bavaria's other orders are so nice, I went ahead and branched out. Maybe some day I will even have some of the orders pictured on the page (the first order pictured on the page sold in an auction two weeks ago for 15,000 Swiss francs, plus auction commissions, so I don't think I'll be getting one soon).

The page is here: http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria/bavaria3.htm

Have a look around and let me know what you think.

Thanks Wildcard. Great place to start. Certainly a significant commander and not a toady. Stay tuned and perhaps someone out there has a reference. You'd think there is a roll out there somewhere.

A while ago we had a great discussion about the Black Eagle Order. I have another question related to this order. Specifically, O?Connor stated in the introduction to the chapter on The Prussian Member?s Cross with Swords of the Royal Hohenzollern House Order of Volume II (Prussia) that there were 18 recipients during WWI. Two were the sons of the Crown Prince and one was the Crown Prince of Denmark. Of the remaining 15, 14 were high ranking generals and one an admiral.

I think it would be very instructive to learn who these officers were. Does anyone know? Rank, Position and date of admission to the order would be excellent as well if I am not being too greedy!

Recommend that you use the search utility with the entry:

Militar Verdienst Kreuz

You will find a good thread and a link to Dave Danner's excellent site as well.

Enjoy & good luck.

Hi all,

Can anybody post me a thread to "military merit crosses"

I dont know much about these and there are a few, different classes, some with swords and crowns some without.

?

I have a cased Bayr. M. V. Kr 3.kl

Thanks Rob

During the Vietnam era - second awards of the NDSM were represented by the oakleaf cluster for US Army. Subsequently - upon reactivation of the award post Vietnam, the star is used. The DFC can be awarded either for heroism in action or outstanding accomplishment in flight (very rare for Army types so this one is likely for valor). The V on the Air Medal indicates a valorous award in the Army. The numerals indicate additional awards with no way to determine how many were for valor versus achievement. During Vietnam, Air Medals were awarded for both valor and achievement - here achievement indicates number of hours flown under certain circumstances - Combat Assault, Combat Support, Combat Service Support).

Thanks Dave

To show that a NDSM to been second awards, one assistant an OLC or a Bronze Star for the Army ?

For which types of actions he has received the DFC and the Air Medal (V and 32 or 33) ?

Crdl

Thierry

OK ? one old guy?s report.

Call sign(s): Sabre 25 then Sabre Red.

In country - April 72 to April 73.

Assigned to Aeroweapons Platoon, Troop F, 9th Cavalry

F-9 deployed to Vietnam as part of the 1st Squadron, 9th Cavalry (Air) along with the full 1st Cavalry Division in 1965. F-9?s designation was originally Troop B, 1-9 Cav but was redesignated to F-9 when the troop was selected to remain in country after the redeployment of the 1st Cav, Division to the US in 1971. The troop was first assigned to the 3rd Brigade (Separate), 1st Cavalry Division until June of 1972 and then to Task Force Gary Owen and finally the 12th Combat Aviation Group, 1st Aviation Brigade where it remained until the ?End of Hostilities? in the spring of 1973. The troop was stationed in III Corps throughout the time of my assignment (flew with this troop the day the cease-fire was announced).

Duties, AH-1G (Cobra) co-pilot then aircraft commander/section leader then platoon leader (hence call sign change).

Arrival date coincident with first documented heat seeking surface to air missile launch against US helicopter. Wasn?t me thankfully however it was on numerous other occasions ? I stand as living testimony to the NVA?s poor marksmanship with this weapon?

I consider myself to be a very lucky man to have served with this heroic unit.

Last month in country spent driving a Huey around for the ICCS as part of the post-war command and control scheme carrying international military personnel from Hungary, Poland, Indonesia and Canada.

It would be really interesting to hear from any of the old salts, units served in, etc although I am well aware that it is deeply personal stuff

Ye gads! Really feeling old now! People are really collecting the stuff we used!

Thank goodness for Chuck in Oregon or I'd be even more demoralized!!!

By the way - the arc is properly termed the Ranger Tab.

Enjoy!

wem

Patch and arc

Hamelman states that v. Bismarck was awarded the military PlM & Oakleaves at the same time (1 September 1884) and the civil PlM for Science & Arts (20 January 1896). Of interest, his was the only instance of a simultaneous award of the order and oakleaves during the reign of Wilhelm I. Not too bad!

Anyone have a full list of his orders & decorations? I note that he wears a neck cross at the proclamation of the empire but that was before his award of the PlM. He is wearing the sash of the Black Eagle so I assume that is not also at his throat. Any ideas?

There are at least three holders of both:

Helmuth von Moltke - military class in 1839, civil class in 1874

Otto von Bismarck - military class in 1884, civil class in 1896

Hermann von Kuhl - military class in 1916, civil class in 1924

The Elder Moltke also had the Oakleaves (1871), the Grand Cross (1879) and the Crown (with diamonds) (1889) of the military class. Generalleutnant von Kuhl also received the Oakleaves in December 1916.

Just one more thought - I understand your desire to do it the "official" way and I've been known to push the system myself on numerous occasions. Problem here is substantiating not the entitlement but that the medal was never issued. You may find that to be borderline onerous and frustrating. (And you might not succeed). At the end of the day ? if you are successful, you will receive exactly the same gong(s) that you would be purchasing at the uniform sales store. If he has been issued medals and has lost them ? a reissue is nearly impossible in my experience so you will again find yourself at the uniform sales store. Just a few learnings from my experience for you to consider.

Regards,

wem

PS they are not nearly as expensive as you might imagine after collecting medals as many here have done. As I recall - $15 or so gets you campaign or more common medals.

Hi Gents,

Thanks so much for all the great suggestions and info so far. Will begin to check out a few of these. Not sure how he feels but in my mind I'd love to see him get them through official government channels. Anyone can go and buy them, but somehow in my mind it's important for it all to be official. If he's entitled to them... earned them, then I feel it's something the government should do. He served the country faithfully and with honor and like all such veterans deserves to be honored by his country in this way. Our just buying the medals and such is, again at least in my mind, just not the same.

But my mind is open and I'm willing to help him to the nth degree in an attempt to get whatever it is he's supposed to have. I think he deserves no less and it's the least I can do. He's a great guy and a true gentleman in every sense of the word. I really want to see him receive whatever is due him from his service with whatever official documentation comes with same. It's something he can proudly display and then eventually pass down in his family.

Looking forward to any more info and will get to work on all this right away.

Thanks again. I'll keep everyone posted on how things work out with this.

Dan

Hi - depending on your level of pragmatism - another solution is:

Check discharge papers - they will indicate entitlements at time of discharge so unless a retroactive award was made the required information will be there.

Step two - find someone with access to the PX/BX (Active soldier, Retired soldier, reservist) and ask to go buy them. May be able to purchase through catalogs or on line as these are no longer "protected".

I know of personnel who have done this for the great generation or even themselves for mounting purposes rather than mess with their originals.

I personally set a shadow box up for a deceased family member's grandson.

You conclude that this is a second class Knight's Cross based on what.

To my eye it is gold plated and hence a first class not second. This would place the recipient at the grade of major at the time of award per my understanding.

Anyone else have an opinion? I claim no expertise in visual identification but I do know that the knight 2nd class was silver not gold and both the swords and medal appear gold plated to me.

The book of Erhard Roth about Baden awards in WW1 is listing 2nd and 1st Lieutenants only as recipients of the knight's cross 2nd class with swords. Most probably the owner of the medal bar was an Army reserve Lieutenant. A very nice bar!

Perhaps an old Major put on retired list at beginning of WWI. As I recall, Baden tended to put swords on war time awards regardless of combat status. Let's call that a starting guess at any rate.

Alexandre -

Per the Bicentennial Edition - Register of Graduates and Former Cadets of the United States Military Academy West Point New York 2002 ? Henry Harley Arnold, 66th of 111 members of his class:

?Born PA 25 June 86. Infantry, Signal Corps, Air Service, Air Corps. Pioneer Army Aviation: Brig. Gen. Asst. Chief Air Corps 36-38 (Dist. Flying Cross): Maj. Gen. Chief Air Corps 38-41 Deputy Chief of Staff, Commanding General AAF, Member Joint Chief of Staff, Member Combined Chiefs of Staff 41-46 (3 Dist. Service Medals, Legion of Merit & Air Medal): General 44: Gen. of Army 44: Many honors decorations and degrees: Retired disability 46General: General of Air Force 49: Died Sanoma CA 15 January 50?

Regards,

wem

Hello Guys,

Im looking for these itens :

- Foreign decorations of Fleet Admiral Ernst J. King

- Decorations and Awards of General of Air Force Henry "Hap" Arnold.

Thx in advance

Regards

Alexandre

Nash = "Imperial German Army Handbook, 1914-1918" by D.B.Nash

Rudamentary reference per title.

Cron = "Imperial German Army 1914-18 Organization, Structure, Orders-of-Battle" by Hermann Cron.

I have the English Language Version - much more detailed that Nash and dry as a cob!

Trying to get one was not pleasant! As I recall, I spent a fair amount of time whining all over the forum until I finally got one - the last on - from the last listed purveyor listed by the usual internet sources.

Paul,

I?ve contemplated the same but haven?t gotten far at all. Time, references and motivation (2 parts) are the issues. Using Cron and Nash, I was going to build a top down spreadsheet hoping to get down to regiments or battalions of infantry, artillery and cavalry.

What I am essentially interested in is the identification of the contingents affiliated with the various Imperial sovereigns. I want to more fully understand the proportional break down by units as a way of better appreciating the relative exclusiveness of the orders and medals bestowed by each sovereign. As an example, W?rttemberg?s MVO is often proposed as a nominal equivalent to the Pour le M?rite and in some ways it is however ? considering that the Kingdom contributed one Corps versus Prussia?s 18 ? the numbers do not support a full equivalency in my opinion.

So ? at the end of the day ? please accept my encouragement especially if you indicate if Prussian, Hessian or whatever in your work. You may want to start with Cron & Nash as a rapid means to get to regimental level then progress to rank lists.

wem

Hello Mark,

According to O'Connor, 640 awards of this medal were made between 1914 & 1920.

It was an an award intended for ranks other than officer or eqivalent per my understanding. I do not know if this award was tied to a specific rank range as were so many of the Imperial Awards. Perhaps a more learned member of the forum will be able to help with that.

As to value - I can not help you there.

Regards,

Wayne

I found an interesting medal bar with a Hohenzollern Golden Honor Medal with Swords. Does anybody have any information about how many of these were awarded, their value and was this a strickly noncom/EM award? Any comments on the medal bar would be appreciated also.

Regards,

Mark

[attachmentid=47241]

A quick look at the heads of the house of Hohenzollern indicates that John Sigismund - Margrave of Brandenburg, inherited the Duchy of Prussia 1618. This was the point at which the two entities became one.

Didn't Brandenburg become part of the Prussian Kingdom in 1701 or 1707? I know the Red Eagle Order was originally a Brandenburg Order, adopted and incorporated by the Prussians.

Come on guys!

Don?t you know anything ? this is the extremely rare and expensive variant featuring the Imperial Pterodactyl! Bid now ? you may never see another at these prices?

Geez!

Althought this looks like an officer's bar could it be that it is for an enlisted me who got bumped to officer during the war and maybe received the enlisted man's PLM. I think the EM PLM is on a EK ribbon. There are at least 4 decorations that use the EK ribbon when awarded for combat, RAO, HOH, EK and EM PLM. The middle ribbon looks that the Wurttemberg Frederick Order but it could be a faded service ribbon. Of course the medals would be all out of order.

For the record (according to my references), the following Prussian Awards & Orders (if awarded "with swords") may be worn on the "War Ribbon" (Black-White-Black-White-Black):

Iron Cross

Royal Hohenzollern House Order

Red Eagle Order

Crown Order

Military Merit Cross

Military Decoration 1st Class

Military Decoration 2nd Class

Warrior Merit Medal (This carries a different number in the B?nderkatalog but looks like the war ribbon to me)

Hope this is of some help. If in error, I invite our more learned friends to make corrections as appropriate!