W McSwiggan

Methinks - like BAO (Brieftauben Abteilung Ost) - that it is really a cover for a top secret regiment... Bavarian ninjas perhaps

Excellent ? love that one but don?t know if I should sing Deutschland ?ber Alles or God Save the Queen!!! cheeky

I like Imperial for two reasons.

First - it gives insight into the soldiers and history of this period in a very little understood area this side of "the pond". Soldiers are very important to me and little is appreciated of our opponants over the years. I also love the arcane!

Second - I can't imagine ever getting bored with this stuff, It is so complex that one could spend a life or two and still not know it all. Great stuf & delightfully complex and quirky!

Hard to respond to your question as I am VERY unfamiliar with this particular award. If the naming is truly representative of this award as a commemorative then I would tend to say that it is a different class. My understanding of the Prussian award was that it was "rank blind" and intended for support of the war effort not involving military operations. I could see this as an award for charitable donations, contributions to the war effort and to officials who never caught a whiff of gunpowder! As special sybolism, if my recall is correct, the first award went to Hindenburg!!! Pretty quirky in my estimation...

John,

Great additions to the list - I'm feeling a little inadequate here because I've found reference to each award on the list in my own library and have overlooked them all!

Better increase my medications...

wem

Hi All,

Still working on this one...

Another has come to my attention courtesy of Dave Danner's site. That would be the Kriegsehren-Medaille from Lippe-Detmold.

wem

Wow - talk about speedy replies!

Thanks Gerd & Rick.

These awards have "slipped under my radar' & I had thought that the Prussian award was a bit of an exception - then these others started coming to my attention.

Wurttemberg's was a bit of a surprize - knew of it but always thought of it more as a rear echelon award more than "hilf" award.

Question Guy Again!

I recently became aware (earlier thread) of the K?nig Ludwig-Kreuz as a nominal equivalent to the Verdienstkreuz f?r Kriegshilfe.

I wonder ? is there more to the list? I have:

Preussen - Verdienstkreuz f?r Kriegshilfe

Bayern - K?nig Ludwig-Kreuz

Sachsen ? Kriegsverdienstkreuz

.

.

.

Not exactly an overwhelming response to either of my proposals...

I can't pin but I will take a stab at the gongs that are useful for establishing timeframes for various bars. I hope I'm not the only one who may find this of utility! Please correct any errors noted!

Imperial German ?Dating? Awards

Kriegsdenkm?nze 1870/71 established 20 May 1871

Kaiser Wilhelm-Erinnerungsmedaille (Zentenarmedaille) established 22 March 1897 for active duty personnel including Schutztruppen as well as veterans of the wars in 1848, 1849, 1864, 1866 &1870/71.

China-Denkenm?nze established 10 May 1901 for service durung the Boxer Rebellion from 30 May 1900 to 29 June 1901.

S?dwestafrika-Denkenm?nze established 19 March 1907 for service in Southwest Africa from1904 to 1908.

Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges established 3 June 1934.

Rick(s),

Thanks for this introductory course in Imperial math.

Perhaps the addition of dates related to various medals & addenda to them encountered on bars would also be useful to the forum members as a quick reference. Not all but those which assist you in determining the historical context of the original owners.

May I also suggest that this thread deserves promotion to "pinned" status!

wem

Cross for "Women & Virgins" for War Merit

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Rick,

I tried really hard not to react to this one but...

Oh - never mind - it's probably better not knowing...

wem

This is the only "field notification" I have ever seen!!!!

Ritsert's HHOX was only gazetted in the Milit?rwochenblatt issue of 12 November 1918-- indicating a typical delay--

and the reason so many of the late ones were never published at all.

Ritsert was commissioned

Leutnant 18.8.04 B3b in Fussart Regt 9 1912

Oberleutnant 18.8.13 E5e in Fussart Regt 16 1914

Hauptmann 25.2.15 G4g

Honor Rank List shows as char. major aD from Fussart Regt 16

In January 1939 he was

Major (E) 1.6.32 #94 on staff Wehrersatz Inspektion Weimar

Not in the 1944 Seniority List, so presumably dead by then.

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OK - I'll bite - more questions...

what do "B3b" "E5e" & "G4g" mean??? Tried but I'll be derned if I can noodle them out!

Some how - I just know I'm going to feel pretty dumb when I hear the answer...

BTW - were these units Prussian?

Thanks Rick - great reply & information as always.

This is where I'm supposed to say "I knew that" - right?

Actually I am temporarily expended with this stuff. If you meld the answers to my verious questions, you get a pretty good template by which to guage distinguished service (for junior officers) - at least to the extent that military awards will allow. The system (that is any system) is simply too quirky and subject to foible and less than honorable motives to be reliable.

Senior officers have always been a seperate breed in every army.

Then there are the enlisted grades... mind boggling but I tend to view almost any recognition going to the enlisted folk as being significant. As always - bottom of the food chain rarely eats well...

Thanks again Rick & all.

Here we go again ? I?m having fun at least!

Of the pin back awards introduced during the war as listed:

Gro?herzogtum Hessen-Darmstadt - Krieger-Ehrenzeichen in Eisen

Gro?herzogtum Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach - Wilhelm-Ernst Kriegskreuz

Herzogtum Sachsen-Altenburg - Herzog Ernst Medaille 1. Klasse mit Schwertern

Herzogtum Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha - Carl Eduard-Kriegskreuz

F?rstentum Lippe-Detmold - Kriegsehrenkreuz f?r heldenm?tige Tat

F?rstent?mer Reu? - Kriegsverdienstkreuz "1914"

Would anyone consider any of these as comparable to the Pour le merite? Numbers are deceiving given the tendency to hand out awards to high ranking officers and glamour activities. Small numbers to small populations can also lead to wrong impressions as well. That said, given that these states either did not make significant use of their orders (Hesse) or had only one to offer, do any of these rise to the Blue Max standard for junior combat officers?

Rick,

That was a great summary - complete with examples. Exactly what I was looking to determine.

Thanks and I hope others are finding this of interest.

wem

Rick, my friend - you are simply too much!

I'm beginning to feel challenged to find a question to which you do NOT know the answer!

What I'm getting here is that the EKII is - in most cases - the first award received but after that - native awards, orders or the EKI are pretty much a toss up.

Great documents! Thanks for sharing them and your knowledge!

Wayne

Next in my never ending series of questions:

My understanding is that during WWI, the authority to award the Iron Cross was delegated to commanders. I do not know but I assume that meant division commanders. Can someone confirm? Did this apply to both 1st & 2nd class?

For other ?nominal? equivalents (list purloined from Dave Danner), is the awarding authority known?

Kingdom - Prussia's Iron Cross

Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin - Military Merit Cross, 1st and 2nd Class

Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg-Strelitz - Cross for Distinction in War, "Brave and Loyal"

Grand Duchy of Oldenburg - Friedrich August Cross, 1st and 2nd Class

Duchy of Brunswick - War Merit Cross, 1st and 2nd Class

Principality of Lippe-Detmold - War Cross for Heroic Deeds & War Merit Cross.

The Principality of Schaumburg-Lippe - Cross for Loyal Service.

Anhalt's Friedrich Cross,

Hesse's General Honor Decoration "For Bravery"

What I am ultimately driving at is a ?pecking order? for awards (working on junior officers because it is less complex). My premise going in is that the EKII was almost always the first award due to the delegation of authority and therefore rapidly accomplished. Orders, I assume required processing through the chancellory and hence ?slow in coming? unless the sovereign was doing ?on the spots? in person. Issue then becomes ? where does the EKI fit? What about equivalents for natives of other imperial states either in Prussian units or their native contingents?

"ALSO racked up at least the BZ3bXmE, BMVO4X, and SA3aX. Yeesh."

What order is the "Yeesh"???

Great information and pix Rix - thanks!

PS

Rick - 2,3,7 & 8 have the look of typically well travelled General Staff officers.

Do they ID as such?

Wayne

Rick,

Hey - no mind reading! Very rude...

Actually - I wasn't going there but an interesting thought & point.

Nice bars!

A little more help if you please. First bar is a little odd in order - would the owner be a Mecklenburger?

Wayne

Thanks Wayne.  I have an Iron Half Moon.  How hard is it to find a Liakat in silver and what do they go for?

thanks again.

Don

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Don,

The truth is - I have no clue...

Hope some other "collecting" member can help you - I am a reader only I'm afraid.

Wayne

Did a soldier have to recieve the Liakat medal before he could recieve the Iron Half Moon (aka Gallipoli Star)?  Is there a relationship between the two simular to the EK2/1?

Thanks

Don

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Hi Don,

High to Low:

1. Gold Imtiyaz Medal ? Highest ranking military decoration of the Ottoman Empire.

2. Gold Liyakat Medal

3. Silver Imtiyaz Medal

4. Silver Liyakat Medal

5. 1915 War Medal (Iron Half Moon, Gallipoli Star) ? entry level gallantry award.

My references indicate that they were awarded in order from low to high with each an effective prerequisite for the next higher. The Golden Medals were quite infrequently awarded.

Regards,

Wayne

Hopefully better put?

The Prussian KHHOX ? was it distributed to junior officers outside the celebrity class in a better fashion that the Orden Pour le M?rite? As stated before ? I find only 2 Infantry Officers below the grade of Major who received the Blue Max.

Any information of the distribution of the KHHOX by rank and/or to non-Prussian contingents?

My numbers for the PlmO show:

Total Awards of 685 (per O?Connor)

Army awards to Captain & below (Inf, Cav & Arty) of 70

Army awards to Captain & below (Inf, Cav & Arty) of non-Prussian Units of 2

KHHOX

Total Awards of 8291 (per O?Connor)

Army awards to Captain & below (Inf, Cav & Arty) of ???

Army awards to Captain & below (Inf, Cav & Arty) of non-Prussian Units of ???

What I?m driving at is ? was your basic ground-doggie officer ? getting his butt shot off every day going to see a Hohenzollern if he wasn?t Prussian or was the best he could hope for from Prussia generally the EKI and whatever his home/unit state was prepared to award?

Bob - that is a plant called rue. It is a small shrubby plant.

The Rue Crown is associated with the Kingdom of Saxony and it is depicted as a caplet on the arms of that kingdom.

The Order of the Rue Crown is the house order of the Wettin family - the former rulers of Saxony.

As an aside, the collar of The Most ancient Order of the Thistle is composed of thistles and sprigs of rue.

Back Again!

re: Prussian MVK equivalents -

I looked at my sources for the Prussian MVK, Bavarian GTM, Saxon GSHM, Wurttemberg GMVM & Badelonian (just made that up...) K-F Sliver MVM and found estimates of awards at 1770, 1004, 150, 2402 & 1282 respectively for the Great War.

Considering the nominal sizes of the contingents of each I conclude that the GSHM is an excellent match. GTM was over done by a factor of about 3 but still reasonable. The Wurttember & Baden awards do not appear to be legitimate equivalents "by the numbers". My information is based on a quick survey of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 6th volumes of the O'Connor series.