W McSwiggan

This medal and the equivalent from Belgium were issued by the military of those respective nations.

They were similar is use and method of award of appurtinances - i.e., bronze, silver, gold stars and palms as a function of citing headquarters.

US service members and US citizens serving in the armed forces of France & Belgium were frequently recipients of these awards.

The involvement of the US military/government was not issuance but authorization to accept and wear. Without permission - a US service member is not allowed to wear foreign decorations.

A rather simple procedure is in effect to gain authorization - request in writing through the chain of command and provide proof of award (Documentation such as orders).

Approval of this action entitles the US service member to wear the award.

Hence, the US does not issue, it approves wear.

Very nice displays - done with skill.

I would like to make a point - perhaps obvious but I'll make it for the record.

Arranging your collection per order of precedence has been recommended and is a worthy idea but... what order of precedence?

The various services have their own so which to chose? Or go by service seniority (Army, USMC, NAVY, USAF, USCG) however this is only part of the problem - do you use period (WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam) or current?

I mention this because (example) after Vietnam, the Purple Heart was "promoted" from just lower than the Commendation Medal to just lower than the Bronze Star Medal.

To my mind, if you where to go to the trouble of rearranging these beautiful displays, perhaps grouping by era and using the applicable order of precedence would be the way to go.

Personally - I'd leave as is and use :which is what and who ranked whom" for discussion during "show & tell".

He is a remarkable individual, and one that other soldiers can look up to, as he is retiring after a long time in the service. What I find remarkable is that he is wearing the Legion of Merit, grade of Chief Commander. This is normally tendered to foreign heads of state and awards of the Legion of Merit to Americans must be made in the lowest degree. The informal attachment to the pocket flap indicates that it was presented at the retirement parade. Perhaps he will be given the proper medal later on.

I too was struck by the grade of the Legion of Merit on his uniform. I agree that it looks "recently hung". I will state that there is precedence for a US soldier receiving a grade higher than the lowest. Given the remarkable career of this officer, I am led to speculate that this award was made as an exception based on his exceptional status. I can not prove this as I have no access to his award document or orders however - I find it hard to imagine that - given the event, location (Ft. Bragg) and involvement of a general officer - an error was made and that a "take back and exchange" would be planned or happen.

A Legion of Merit is the "normal retirement award" for an officer in the grade of colonel. I would posit that the rationale was to "bump it up" - not to the DSM but to the remarkable award shown.

Again - just speculation on my part.

Any insiders out there who can shed more light of this?

A few points - hopefully of some general interest.

Many West Point graduates were former enlisted personnel who proudly wear their Good Conduct Medals.

Many states advance their retiring National Guard officers one grade in their state militias. Given the length of this officers service, I wonder if his rank as BG was of this nature.

Many states also grant rank in their militia allowing officers to fill positions calling for superior rank often as a temporary measure while awaiting fedeal recognition of the new rank.

I am personally aware of an officer in the grade of LTC being appointed by the governor to the position of State Adjutant General in the grade of MG. This officer was never federally recognized beyond the grade of COL and after his tenure as Adjutant General, reverted to COL. Upon retirement, he donned his militia rank of two stars again.

Per article listed below (paraphrased):

http://digital-libra...phs/classrings/

The tradition of class rings at American colleges and universities is believed to have originated at West Point (foundation 1802) with the class of 1835. The class of 1836 adopted no ring but each subsequent class has done so.

By 1917, it become customary to place a class crest on one side of the ring and the Academy crest on the other all class rings became uniform except for the type of gold and stone.

The library at USMA displays an example of each class ring – all belonging to deceased graduates. While not all classes are represented in the display, 170 rings are displayed.

My experiences/observations:

Many more rings have been donated than can reasonable and meaningfully displayed. Beginning in 2002, rings have been melted with the permission of the donors and added to an ingot containing the gold from all others melted. Then a portion of the ingot is used in the formation of all rings being made for the graduating class symbolizing the linkage within the "Long Gray Line".

Each class elects a "ring & crest" committee that designs the official class crest. This crest makes up one side of the ring and the Academy crest the other. Surrounding the inlaid stone is the inscription WEST POINT and the class year.

The rings are presented shortly after the beginning of classes for the First Class (Senior) AKA Firstie year. Great significance was attached to this event and it was marked by one of the biggest social events of the year – the "Ring Hop" – tradition dies slowly and painfully at West Point hence the term "Hop". I am told it was a wonderful event… my wife (fiancée at the time regularly reminds me of this as we missed it due to a major rule infraction on my part resulting in "walking the area" in lieu of dancing.

I have a striking memory of the then Major Norman Schwarzkopf admiring each of our brand new rings at the beginning of class following the presentation. He welled with emotion and entreated us never to remove our rings. Of course, shortly thereafter he was merrily dancing on our heads for our academic shortcomings during the class. Alas – emotion will only carry one so far…

If the current ring knockers still attach as much or the same type of meaning to their rings – I can not say. For me and my classmates – it is a cherished momento of a challenging period of life faced alongside a wonderful collection of friends. The bonds of class ran deep then and I hope they still do.

Did not purchase a High School Ring. Being of modest means and college bound, I decided to pass on that. Besides, wife went to the same high school as classmate and has one...!

College was very much another story. Ring is very meaningful to me and I wear it constantly - even in Vietnam where, if shot down in "Bad Indian Territory" - it could have presented a problem. It serves as a constant reminder of the institution's ideals and the splendid bunch of men in my class.

Sent by friend.

Captures about every flying machine the Army owned at the time - ah the memories.

Music good as well.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeFq4ju31wI&feature=watch_response

Mr. Keating makes an excellent point as these awards were branch connected and hence subject to the commander's discretion and not an official protocol. KM awarded based on oak leaves. Luftwaffe based on Göring's whim or political expediency - Golden Pilot-Observer Badge to Rommel & Himmler... Defies pidgeon-holing even perceived precedence!

Not a precise answer to your question but - in the KM, the badges with diamonds were awarded exclusively to knight's cross with oakleaves recipients implying nominal "value" that is equivalent.

I do not believe that much concern was paid to "precedence" as there were many chronological reversals to assumed order such as DKiG being awarded after the RK.

Please accept this input as opinion not gospel.

No pin-ups! Must be fake!

Based on orders and decorations - a very distinguished combat career. Sad that he did not live very long to enjoy his recognition.

You are welcome Chuck!

Tonight I raised a glass to this fine old war horse!

A finer mount a cavalryman could not ask for!

wem

F-9 Cav, 1CD

I was an Army aviator in Vietnam. I flew Hueys with B/229AHB/1CAV, including this one. It is remarkable to me that what once seemed so ordinary and prosaic has become extraordinary after 40 years of hindsight. The UH-1H served me very well and I returned without so much as a scratch. Thank you for this reminder of what once was and will never again be.

Chuck Stromme

Cottage Grove, Oregon

This is the speech given at Ft Rucker when they retired the last Huey: CW4

Lawrence Castagneto, 17 may 2011

As a Vietnam Veteran Army Aviator, I would like to thank everyone for coming

to this special occasion, on this to be honest...very sad day, the end of a

era. An era that has spanned over 50 years. The retirement of this grand old

lady "OUR MOTHER" ... the Huey.

I would like to thank, MG Crutchfield for allowing me to speak at this event

and try to convey in my own inadequate, meager way.. what this aircraft

means to me and so many other Vietnam veterans.

First a few facts:

It was 48 yrs ago this month that the first Huey arrived in Vietnam with

units that were to become part of the 145th and the 13th Combat Aviation

Battalions; both units assigned here at Ft Rucker today. While in Vietnam,

the Huey flew approximately 7,457,000 combat assault sorties; 3,952,000

attack or gunship sorties and 3,548,000 cargo supply sorties. That comes to

over 15 million sorties flown over the paddies and jungles of Nam, not to

include the millions of sorties flown all over the world and other combat

zones since then ....what a amazing journey.... I am honored and humbled to

have been a small part of that journey.

To those in the crowd that have had the honor to fly, crew, or ride this

magnificent machine in combat, we are the chosen few, the lucky ones . They

understand what this aircraft means, and how hard it is for me to describe

my feelings about her as a Vietnam combat pilot.... for she is alive... has

a life of her own, and has been a life long friend.

How do I break down in a few minutes a 42 year love affair, she is as much a

part of me, and to so many others,,,as the blood that flows through our

veins. Try to imagine all those touched over the years ...by the shadow of

her blades.

Other aircraft can fly overhead and some will look up and some may not; or

even recognize what they see but, when a Huey flies over everyone looks up

and everyone knows who she is... young or old all over the world she

connects with all.

To those that rode her into combat... the sound of those blades causes our

heart beat to rise... and breaths to quicken... in anticipation of seeing

that beautiful machine fly overhead and the feeling of comfort she brings.

No other aircraft in the history of aviation evokes the emotional response

the Huey does... combat veteran's or not... she is recognized all around the

world by young and old, she is the ICON of the Vietnam war, U.S. Army

Aviation, and the U.S. Army. Over 5 decades of service she carried Army

Aviation on her back, from bird dogs and piston powered helicopters with a

secondary support mission, to the force multiplier combat arm that Army

Aviation is today.

Even the young aviators of today, that are mainly Apache pilot's, Blackhawk

pilot's, etc., that have had a chance to fly her will tell you there is no

greater feeling, honor, or thrill then to be blessed with the opportunity to

ride her thru the sky... they may love there Apaches and Blackhawks, but

they will say there is no aircraft like flying the Huey " it is special".

There are two kinds of helicopter pilots: those that have flown the Huey and

those that wish they could have.

The intense feelings generated for this aircraft are not just from the

flight crews but, also from those who rode in back ...into and out of the

"devils caldron". As paraphrased here from "Gods own lunatics", Joe

Galloway's tribute to the Huey and her flight crews and other Infantry

veterans comments:

Is there anyone here today who does not thrill to the sound of those Huey

blades?? That familiar whop-whop-whop is the soundtrack of our war...the

lullaby of our younger days it is burned in to our brains and our hearts. To

those who spent their time in Nam as a grunt, know that noise was always a

great comfort... Even today when I hear it, I stop...catch my breath...and

search the sky for a glimpse of the mighty eagle.

To the pilots and crews of that wonderful machine ...we loved you, we loved

that machine.

No matter how bad things were...if we called ... you came... down through

the hail of green tracers and other visible signs of a real bad day off to a

bad start. I can still hear the sound of those blades churning the fiery

sky ....To us you seemed beyond brave and fearless... Down you would come to

us in the middle of battle in those flimsy thin skin -chariots ...into the

storm of fire and hell,..

...we feared for you , we were awed by you. We thought of you and that

beautiful bird as " God's own lunatics"... and wondered ...who are theses

men and this machine and where do they come from ...... Have to be "Gods

Angels".

So with that I say to her, that beautiful lady sitting out there, from me

and all my lucky brothers, that were given the honor to serve their country,

and the privilege of flying this great lady in skies of Vietnam - Thank you

for the memories...Thank you for always being there...Thank you for always

bringing us home regardless of how beat up and shot up you were...,

Thank You!!!!.

You will never be forgotten, we loved you then..... we love you now... and

will love you till our last breath ...

And as the sun sets today, if you listen quietly and closely you will hear

that faint wop wop wop of our mother speaking to all her children past and

present who rode her into history in a blaze of glory ...she will be saying

to them: I am here... I will always be here with you.

I am at peace and so should you be ... and so should you be.

Post War ribbon bar of a Bavarian stud with Thuringian connections.

Not what you seek I know but that's all I've got right now.

If you saw a ribbon bar with this combination, how would you interpret it?

This information is fascinating to me.

I began service on the 1st of July, 1965 at a place well known for following rules.

At that time, numerous tactical officers were wearing tans with green hat, etc. while inspecting us.

I wonder if the "grace" period was extended for that uniform beyond the "mandatory" date shown below or perhaps mandatory date indicated required for purchase but the tans were allowed beyond that date as a "wear out" date much as the greens were when the Army reverted to Blues.

There are some options that you can do here.

1) Army Green Uniform with black stripes, khaki shirt, and black tie (remember the shade of green was different than the curent version, It was OG-107) I also believe the uniform was wool.

2) All Khaki uniform with Green Bus Driver hat (officer version with gold bank and gold eagle)

3) Khaki pants, khacki short sleeve shirt, with pin on rank on the collar

HERE IS THE ABBREVIATED REGULATIONS FOR THE UNIFORMS:

1) ARMY GREEN UNIFORM: Universal uniform for all seasons, ranks, and non-field usage. Adopted 2 Sept 1954 and phased in during 1956-1961, becoming mandatory winter service uniform in 1960 and summer uniform in 1964. Color: Army Green Shade OG-44 or OG-344 for lightweight fabrics. Worn with khaki or tan shirts, black tie. Black shoes phased in starting in 1956.

2)ARMY KHAKI WOOL UNIFORM: Khaki lightweight wool tropical worsted or gabardine coat and trousers uniform for summer duty or semi-dress uniform for officers and warrant officers. Renamed Army Tan Uniform (shade 61) in 1959. Often worn by officers and NCOs with coat removed as a replacement for the issue Army Khaki Cotton Uniform. Worn with khaki or tan shirt. In 1948 the necktie changed from khaki to OD.

3) ARMY COTTON KHAKI UNIFORM: Summer garrison duty uniform, shirt and trousers. Originally long sleeves and full trousers only; from 1956-1962 the abbreviated warm-region version was adopted with shorts, knee socks, and short sleeve shirt. Summer use of the short sleeve shirt combined with long trousers continued until 31 Aug 1985.

best regards,

ostprussenmann

Just guessing here but the quartering - assuming the rules used then (& there) are comparable to those currently used in the UK suggest that the Elector was married to a lady whose arms are those baring the scimitar. Offspring would show Saxony Elector twice in opposing corners with the other opposite assuming the lady held arms in her own right. I'd look to see the various couples who occupied the Elector's throne in hopes of finding your answer. The right bride should give away both dates & arms.

Don't have regs available but long sleeved tan shirt without epaulets is my recall. This uniform was transitioning in when I started in 1965. Old guys were delighted... Many wore tans as sign of honor along with white name tapes and black/gold US ARMY on fatigues.

(By the way... whats with US Special operations helicopters... there always seems to be one that breaks down.)

Having flown military helicopters a bit I can only say that there are many, many things that can go wrong - to include false indications of failure. Pilots are trained to land "as soon as practicable" - "as soon as possible" - "immediately" depending on the indications. I've had engine failures, system failures, timely indications of impending failures and false indications of problems. These are incredibly complex machines and as such - more prone to issues than simple machines - ever heard of a door stop failure?

That said - you do not fly such a bird out of and over hostile territory if a better option is available - like land - transfer load and blow the bird for instance... not sure we really wanted to explain unnecessary loss of service members or perhaps "well we had the body but the helicopter crashed and it was incinerated".

A point of note - while there was a material failure of some sort - please note that the plan was sufficiently robust to compensate for the problem.

Sounds like excellent execution of an excellent plan to me.

My opinion is that parade mounting is the way to go as most authentic for your display of this group. I would not use the original ribbons however. I would preserve those and use modern reproduction ribbons for the display. The ribbons shown are just too beautiful to “slice & dice” as you would need to do. In this manner you could still reverse the process if desired at a later date.

Breathtaking images but they do not fully replicate the "rush of the touch"!

Was it hard to mask the drool spots when scanning???

The things that were seen...

I was graciously allowed to fondle the most elusive example of my favorite Imperial piece in the world last night. However, It was suggested I be frisked when I left the room to visit the loo. "The Traveling Museum" was in town last night and we all had a marvelous visit. So, I think words cannot describe this little gem further.

Interesting - no sign of the KCB - clearly awarded between photographing and printing of card...

What tickled the ladies' fancies the most - the medals or the moustache?

One of a set of 14 cards issued in 1901 with the Tab Cigarettes of Ogdens Ltd and titled Photograph of International Interest or a Prominent British Officer.

You should be able to buy the complete set for around 10 pounds sterling, but cards in VG condition are hard to find.

The text on the rear reads:

Major Sir Claude M. MacDonald, KCB, KCMG, Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary, at the Court of Pekin, China.

For Sir Claude's role during the Boxer Rebellion refer to: http://www.kaiserscr...501/306501.html

The Cross is that of Commander, Saxe-Ernestine House Order and was the means for the three duchies to recognize excellence or honor citizens or others. With swords or without in the customary manner.

The Wilhelm - I'm stretching here a bit - was for extreme recognition by Wilhelm for distinguished civil service.

What feats/accomplishments were those two neck orders awarded for?

Paul,

Nidely done - thanks & sorry for the trouble!

Stay tuned as he gave me several more to post over the coming days.

Wayne

Thank you Col!! I really appreciate you doing that.

I fixed the thread.

I will give Rick your regards.

Please be advised that I messed up the posting. There is a continuation using the same subjuct with #2 on it that continues Rick's narrative - there he shows more information as well as an ID.

I asked a moderator to merge the two threads but hav no response so far - any help would be appreciated to fix my blunder.

In the mean time I will bring it "forward".

Here is an oddball early style M1915 ribbon bar of 18mm height, 15mm width, with an unsuccessful early “crank handle” pin, on navy blue backing:

EK2 1914

Red Eagle Order 4 X (6 May 1911 as 1st Officer of SMS Cormoran)

Prussian Lifesaving Medal (26 February 1910 ditto)

Colonial Medal (bar “Ponape 1910/11”)

Southwest Africa Medal 1904-06 (unknown if steel or bronze, at this time)

Baden Zähringen Lion Order-Knight 1st with Oakleaves and Swords (BZ3bXE—23.06.16 see below)

This bar dates summer 1916 to 1920, probably 1916 from the oddball typology. Apparently the device was replaced on the Baden ribbon at some point—oakleaves were rarely found even when earned as most dealers obviously didn’t keep them in stock. Werber also received the EK1 1914 and a post-war Prussian/Reichs XXV, then the Hindenburg Cross for Combatants.

Imperial German Navy 10 April 1899 to 10 September 1920—

Seekadett 18.04.99

Fähnrich zur See 10.04.00 (seniority unknown)

Leutnant zS

Oberleutnant zS 21.03.05 Ji (this indicating he did not hold an Abitur diploma)

Kapitänleutnant zS 06.08.09 B

Korvettenkapitän zS 16.07.17 B

1900: SMS Charlotte on school cruise

1904-- ? (this would reveal which type SW Africa Medal he received, by WHERE he was)

1905: Schiffsjungen Division staff, Friedrichsort

1907: SMS Zähringen

1909: SMS Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm

1910/11: 1st Officer SMS Cormoran (suppression of Ponape uprising)

1914: Staff of II. Matrosen Division, Wilhelmshaven, then 1st Officers of SMS Hagen and SMS Hildebrand to January 1915; 1st Officer of SMS Elbing to 1 June 1916 (BZ3bXE entry has him “of SMS Hagen”—apparently a “war security” publication of his last peacetime posting); 1st Officer of SMS Graudenz to June 1918; then Chief of VIth Minesweeper Flotilla to war’s end.

SMS Elbing and the battleship SMS Posen collided in the midst of the battle of Skagerrak/Jutland, just past midnight 1 June 1916. SMS Elbing sank about 3 hours later, but with the loss of only 4 of her over 450 member crew.

Despite being retained for 6 months longer than most Imperial Navy officers, Werber was not taken into the Reichsmarine and did not get a brevet promotion on retirement.

Werber was Member Number 672 of the M.O.V. Married after 01.01.14 and by 1928, in which year he was living in Plauen i/Vogtland as Hauptgeschäftsführer of the Vogtl. Kreislandbund E.V. and was a Direktor of the Vogtl. Milchhof A.G. in that city. (From Pacific native rebellions to Saxon milk cow management!...)

1931 he was living in Frankfurt am Oder with (common to many in that dreadful year) no occupation listed.

1935 he was living in Hamburg as Leiter of Reichssender Hamburg, and was a Member of the Reichs Radio Chamber (Reichsrundfunkkammer)

1937 at the same home address in Hamburg, but radio executive title then was Sendeleiter, Reichssender Hamburg

1939: Living in Frankfurt am Main, Intendant of Reichssender Frankfurt Rundfunk.

Not listed in Hildebrand for any WW2 naval duty, so presumably remained employed as a senior radio broadcasting executive. No further information known.

I’ve had this ribbon bar since January 2002 (thanks to Mike D) and THOUGHT I had its owner semi-identified, but that was based on a misconception that the “war ribbon X” in 2nd place was the (expected) Crown Order 4X… not the Red Eagle it actually was. Correct identification only made 16 November 2010—

which is why we in the Research Community don’t/can’t charge “suitable” fees for our work. Sometimes it takes mere minutes… other times years and years. I hope you have enjoyed this Real Life Story of an “anonymous” ribbon bar’s original wearer.

Thanks to WEM for posting this since I am offline. (Things getting buttoned down here on The Island before we’re iced in for the winter again….) Rick Research

Sources:

Annual Rank Lists for the navy and army, WW1 Honor Rank Lists, Prussian Orders Lists, Baden Zähringen Lion Rolls, directories of the German Naval Officers’ Association (MOV and MOH eV).