W McSwiggan

Hmmmm...

We seem to have a respected reference and period photographs in conflict!

It comes down to

(1) an error in Nimmergut

(2) an unsanctioned award by one of the princes

(3) or a very naughty OGF Lammers...

My guess is that we will never know!

Based on a quick check - the reigning Prince (Leopold IV) lived until after the 2nd World War. I am not sure if he was a party member however his three eldest sons were. I suspect that their influence would have been sufficient regardless of Papa's membership to cause Lammers to receive this award.

Statement - to my understanding, the Second Class of the Lippe Honor Cross is a very high award to a Captain - the rank held by Lammers at retirement I believe.

Can one infer that this was a Post War/Abdication bestowal by the House of Lippe? (May be a dumb question as a widely know fact - just not known to me)

Can one further infer that the senior member of the house was an ardent NAZI much as was the Duke of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha? (Equally dumb question perhaps)

For moment, he won :

- EK-II 1914,

- Preussische Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe,

- Fürstlich Lippische Ehrenkreuz 2. kl,

- EK-I 1914,

- Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges 1914-1918 mit Schwertern,

- Ungarische Ehrenmedaille des Weltkrieges 1914-1918 mit Schwertern,

- Deutsche Olympia Ehrenzeichen 1. kl (1936),

- Goldenes Parteiabzeichen (31 janvier 1937),

- Cavaliere di Gran Croce dellOrdine della Corona dItalia,

- Ehrenzeichen des DRK 1. kl mit Halsdekoration u. Bruststern,

- Treudienst Ehrenzeichen 40 jahr (6 juillet 1939),

- Ritterkreuz d. Spanischen Ordens von Joch u. dem Pfeilen (9 février 1941),

- Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 13 März 1938,

- Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1 Oktober 1938,

- Dienstauszeichnungen d. NSDAP in Bronze.

Thierry

Is the Devil's Advocate then suggesting conspiracy with the forger on the part of Paul C and Rick Research? I can see no other conclusion to be drawn from your input. Without such collusion, how does the forger gain? If that is what you posit, I would then suggest - publicly not secretly - to the chairman and every moderator in earshot that your behavior is unacceptable on this forum.

The Devil's Advocate might suggest that it was an effective way of passing a clever fake with a high-earning potential into circulation. But someone has to ask the difficult questions, even if it results in waves of complaints to the webmaster from those facing the questions and their friends.

PK

Back again with a bit more information.

Having checked with Rick Research on the matter - the wear of Bavarian and Saxon awards in the preferential position was governed by the regulations of the army (Prussian, Bavarian or Saxon) that granted your entry into the armed forces so the order would continue to be in force for a Saxon Leutnant (for example) regardless of current unit of assignment.

For additional information courtesy of Rick - see:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?app=gallery&module=cats&do=sc&cat=28

Ludwig

Jay,

The order of precedence was a matter of state's regulations.

I can not testify as to exactly how they were applied.

During IIIR - a unifying regulation applied to all reestablishing the EKII as the "leader of the parade".

During the IIR - I give as my opinion not backed by reference that the unit of assignment's affiliation governed the wear within the unit not the nationality of the induvidual but I can not be 100% certain on that.

At any rate - it was regulation - manner of application uncertain to me. Period photographic evidence would be fastest method to determine where unit affiliation, individual's nationality are known. Sorry I can't be more direct.

Hugo

Danke! Was that a solid rule concerning precedence or just a sometimes followed tendency, McSwiggan?

Jay

During the empire, the kingdoms of Bavaria & Saxony gave precedence to their orders and decorations over others. The rest of the subordinate states did not and the EKII took position of honor.

My appreciation is that the only units with this precise combination and no others are the 26th Infantry Division and the 42nd Infantry Division. The 41st Division Field Artillery also was intitled to this exact combination.

In addition - a replacement who was assigned to the 3rd Infantry Division after the Aisne could also have worn this combination.

Partial answer - many awards can be rescinded.

General Koster, CG Americal Division lost his career, a star and his DSM due to the Calley Case.

If the soldier in question had been awarded the ARCOM for meritorious service and then was court martialed during his tour in RVN, he could well have lost the medal but - not the Purple Heart - get wounded - get a Purple Heart - unless that was obtained fraudulently - that should have "stuck" if it was in fact actually awarded in the first place. Self inflicted wound perhaps??? First blush PH - then - away she goes...

Not a book out there – would love one myself or even to write one but I do not have the references to do so in a manner befitting the subject.

Considering a primer to lay out what I’ve learned over the years with the tutelage of Rick Research but the time to get it right is a problem.

That said – in case you are unaware there are two web-sites that are excellent as sources of English language information (not all you request unfortunately).

One is Dave Danner’s at: http://home.att.net/~david.danner/militaria/states.htm

The other is Medalnet’s (alias Andreas M. Schulze Ising) at: http://www.medalnet.net/

Good luck.

I have these volumes as well and am pleased to say so.

Is there specific information you need - I can check for you.

Hugo

Interesting - he appears to be wearing his EKII on top of the button hole "pig pile" - I'd have thought that a Bavarian would have given the preferential position to his MVO.

Geez!

Those bottom two buttons look dangerously stressed!

Gives new meaning to "if you see me coming; better step aside"...

Yup - plus the fact that the German Cross was not officially in the EK progression.

This is why you will find numerous examples of the RK pre-dating the DKiG.

The requirement was to hold the EKI and to continue to distinguish oneself on numerous subsequent occasions. There is no mention of the RK in the requirements.

The same can be said about the relationship between the KVK and the DKiS. There is at least one example (per a quick check of randomly selected pages in Gordon's book) of the RK/KVK preceding the DKiS.

I guess that if a person had the RK and did something of merit but not enough to give the oakleaves to the RK that they would then get the DKiG. It makes sense.

It is interesting that he received the DKiG after he received the EKRK.

Not as uncommon as you might think Paul. Happened quite a bit especially for the earlier RK recipients.

Thor

Now I am going to have people following me around at shows to see what I look at. I guess I will have to start wearing a long trenchcoat, dark glasses and a large hat. Oh wait...that is way I usually wear.

A burkha perhaps??? :whistle:

I'll go a little off topic here but for the benefit of our readers, the Army GCM can also be awarded with less than the requisit time upon completion of enlisted service if other requirements are met - hence prior service cadets cease to be enlisted upon entry into West Point and are awarded the GCM regardless of time in service.

Georg

Per Captain Albert's suggestion,

Perhaps but it does not align with anything I've ever seen throughout my career.

Generally - subordinate to FA Battalions one finds batteries not companies. Beyond that companies/batteries subordinate to battalions carry letter designations not numbers.

I still think that the highest probability is that the "1" was actually a misinterpreted "Y" - smudged or worn off at the top. Also in my experience - when marking equipment for identification, soldiers tended to list unit of assignment not a history of assignments to ease return in the event of loss. As there was no mention of "cross outs" then this is is either a list of assignments - or a current assignment and the "Service Company One designation implies a company assigned or attached to another company sized unit. The probability of this happening coupled with "Battery 1" renders this proposal highly unlikely.

Or - at least that would be my guess for what it is worth.

Gunther

Why does the "Little Shop of Horrors" come to mind... :speechless:

Schmidt,

Here’s what I know and here’s what I do not know:

There were numerous “29”s in the Imperial German Army. A quick list (reference Cron) – may not be exhaustive –

Infantry Regiment 29

Reserve Infantry Regiment 29

Bavarian Infantry Regiment 29

Landwehr Infantry Regiment 29

Erzatz Infantry Regiment 29

Bavarian Jäger Regiment 29

Field Artillery Regiment 29

Reserve Field Artillery Regiment 29

Pioneer Regiment and Battalion 29

No Cavalry or Foot Artillery numbered 29

The threads in the shoulder board are black to my eye and therefore this is from a Prussian if I am seeing correctly.

As to the branch color – this is a problem for me, as I do not know when the boards were made. Prior to the war, this color was normally that assigned to a Corps area not branch. I do not have a reference at hand delineating the branch or corps colors so I can not testify as to if this is corp or branch or what branch if you are prepared to make that assumption.

Manfred

Thanks - guess I could have done that - huh?

Must be getting old...

Good (interesting) information.

I found it on Wikipedia.

Heres the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_living_Knight%E2%80%99s_Cross_recipients

Summary:

Golden Oaks Swords Diamonds: 0 (last and only Rudel)

Oaks Swords Diamonds: 0 (Last was Galland)

Oaks Swords: 3

Oaks: 24

KC: 43 (list may be incomplete

Would you consider sharing?

Found it.

Naxos is dead on with his reply.

I am not plugging anyone's book and hope not to be castigated for this but...

D.B. Nash's "Imperial German Army Handbook 1914-1918" is an inexpensive and readily available reference providing ready answers to questions such as this. I recommend it for what it is - compact and a good place to start.

Uhlans were the German lancers. Rittmeister Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen comes to mind...

...don't tell me, let me guess, they had no lancer units per se? <!--emo&--><img src='http://gmic.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Yup - First AD - all the Armored Divisions used the same insignia with two exceptions - first - obviously is the numeral. Second is the use of a divisional name in a rectangle below the patch as seen in the earlier example. 1 AD was Old Ironsides. Judging from the appearance of this patch, I'm guessing WWII vintage. Interesting that the "Old Ironsides" name is missing either lost or suggesting a very early patch pre-dating the "naming".

I also have a similar patch but with a "1" in the top section. I guess this would be the 1st Armored Division. The red section seems faded, but maybe was made that way. Can anyone guess the age of this patch? It looks like it was cut from a uniform.