landsknechte

No no no, not everyone, buuuuut everyone who got _both_ - according to Bernd.

Ooooooooooh. That does make a bit more sense. I think.

Here's the reverse:

I'm eyeballing this ribbon bar, but I haven't a clue what the ribbons in first, second, and fourth place are. Anyone recognize 'em??

Uhhhh, unless I haven't worked down to some sort of announcement in the 4 hours since I was last online, there are no new Bavarian Rolls ready for release.

The problem with ribbon bars is not being able to tell what EXACTLY some awards are. That would be the problem with the first two. ESPECIALLY given the proclivity of recipients of the BMVK3 to wear improper gold rather than bronze swords. Medal bars would be at least definite as to what was actually being worn. There is nothing conclusive as to rank on either bar.

I would have to agree that on the pair of lapel bows that MUST be a BMV3XmKr on Kriegsverdienst ribbon because of the St. Michael. But the published Roll only has 19 recipients of that, only 4 of whom were in the Bavarian military--and none of them match. Obviously the published Roll is not complete.

I've been distracted enough with my personal life over the last few months (I'm only just starting to come back to the hobby and the forum), that I've completely lost track of who is doing what in this area. Didn't know if there was any new clues that could be derived from the non-Bavarian ribbons on these bars. Also, I saw a mention in another thread that Bernd was working on, or at least has access to the MVK rolls. I had thought that it was previously the MVO's that were researchable. The sixth ribbon on the double wrap bar is either the Freidrichsorden or the Prussian Crown Order. From that, I'd assume that we're either looking at an officer or a Beamter recognized as an officer by a foreign state, and treated as an enlisted man by his own state. I had thought the light blue whatever it is pretty well ruled out the MVK3XmKr. If that is the case, I'd imagine that the number of MVO3XmKr or MVK1mKr on the war merit ribbon would be a rather small pool.

...or am I overlooking some totally obvious scenario?

On the second one, I have scribblings in my notes that indicate that you were able to cross check the Bavarian and the Saxon rolls to discount an officer with this combo.

What?

Of course they were.

???

I had always been running under the impression that they were awarded with the different ribbons to different classes of people. This thread is the first that I've heard of the war merit version being given to everyone. I had assumed that the war merit ribbon was more akin to the white-black EK.

Just trying to figure out the mechanics of how this process went through for the average frontline soldier that would typically be associated with the "standard" MVK/MVO. If everyone who had a the frontline ribbon had already been awarded the the war merit ribbon, I would expect to see more of it floating around.

...and the other.

Long shot, I know. Now that there has been some more work on the various state's rolls, I was wondering if these two bars were any closer to being identifiable...

Do we know if everyone was physically given the war merit version, or were they awarded it on paper only?

I'd imagine there was significant difference in the rules between who could own one, and who could carry one and where they could get away with carrying it. I've never researched this particular subject, but there are countless references out there in regards to people in the merchant and artisan classes attending various sword schools in the early to middle 16th century. I know Albrecht D?rer was an avid swordsman, for one. Going into the lower social orders, it was the norm amongst the "volunteer" (aka mercenary) armies that soldiers were required to provide their own arms and armor. Obviously they weren't formally members of a military organization prior to mustering, and by their private ownership of weapons it would follow that these items were relatively freely available for purchase. I would suspect that the increasing power of the nation-state that came about in the early modern period, and the corresponding decline of a specific knightly class would lessen the "threat" posed by one single armed individual and thus the restrictions could safely be lessened.

...not the impression made by the stamp, but the actual stamp itself. The body of the stamp, the handle, etc.?

Since there are no devices, we will never know.

Some things only a MEDAL bar can tell us.

Even if we never know the exact grade, should I at least assume the war merit ribbon is the lower grade?

They all got the decoration on the ribbon for "Kriegsverdienst" first.

Why then was it worn in first place, as if it were a higher grade?

Also, the beamter ribbon is in first place, which leads me to believe that he earned a lower grade of the regular version first.

There were quite a few civil servants who got the MVK1x/2x for "Kriegsverdienst" and later on a MVK1x/MVO4x with war ribbon. All of them eturned the lower decoration.

Apparently not all of them.

I wished it was still mine ...

Well, I get used to sell bars and to get to know they are better than I thought.

Consider yourself fortunate, as the bar I sent you is one of only two bars I've ever traded or sold.

Yeah, Bavarian is my specialty / fetish.

That ? peach colored ribbon in 4th place is baffling me. Is it actually YELLOW with red edges (Mecklenburg Griffin Order?) Anhalt's Friedrich Cross was dark green and red or white edged.

No action at all WW1 (Noncombatant Hindenburg Cross) and NO long service suggests to me that this was some sort of civil servant mobilized in an army/navy uniform for the war's duration.

The precedence here is totally messed up, but without knowing exactly what REAL colors that 4th ribbon are, I'll wait for an accurate description.

PS Who did you buy this from? That does matter, nowadays, when so much that is screwy is being made by eCrap sellers out of original parts. I am deeply disturbed by the precedence here.

I assumed that it was a faded green, as I've got a Saxon Albrechtsorden that faded to a similar shade of sickly yellow. I'll confirm the actual color once I've got the bar in my grubby little paws.

I bought it from "Mount Antique" (aka cbdx21) on eBay.

Edit: I emailed the seller, and he said it was a uniform silver or gray color on both front and back. He could detect no trace of any other residual color. Will confirm when I get it in hand. Strange...

I like the 4 place the best. Is the placement of the first two correct?

I don't think the regulations differentiate between the two versions of the MVK, so probably the one is a higher grade than the other.

I hope so ... I hope we could get some information on this? Pity there are no devices on it ...

The eBay seller I had this one from had another one, but I was outbid on it so the set split. Here the picture, if it may help ...

Awesome! Even if the bars have been permanently separated, it's still neat to be able to hang onto the images and the information.

I'm guessing enlisted level but I'm not really sure. Definately some sort of story in that bar.

Quite happy with this one. My first China service ribbon bar. I'm assuming the plain blue ribbon in first place is a Prussian Crown order, given the other Prussian decorations. At first glance, this bar looks like it might have belonged to a medical officer, but what then of the combattant Anhalt in 4th place? Anyone have any thoughts or observations on this one?

I traded Saschaw a ribbon bar that matches one of his medal bars for this unusual little Bavarian. I think we both came out ahead on the deal.

Thanks for the help guys!

I wasn't sure whether he was hiding the Swastika on the devices by cut-and-pasting a bit of ribbon over them on the picture, so as not to have the items removed.

If you look closely at a couple of the eagles, you can see an almost circular "distortion" that that reeks of a Photoshop clone tool.

Double commemoratives? I didn't think that was allowed.

Perhaps Rick can confirm what the regs were. I know I've seen a number of bars with two of them on there, but they may not have been following regulations. If I remember correctly, the Generaloberst Otto Dessloch bar was amongst them.

well, the Hussar ribbon style? For an NCO?

Ok, the sword's don't match, but what else...?

I thought that Bavarian officers didn't get a long service decoration until they hit 25 years, and in that case wouldn't there have been a 1905 Luitpold to go with the 1911?

That particular award was continued into the Third Reich, FWIW. Note how the acorn has been replaced with a Swastika.