GREAKLY

4 minutes ago, Binky said:

I agree with you, but as most of the Imperial Russian non-Christian versions are from the mid to late 19th century and early 20th, a state interested in adopting the idea would presumably have refined the deference.

St.Sava's order was established in 1883, which falls into the same timing ballpark ("mid to late 19th century and early 20th"). Also, given, that the crosses from Serbian state eagles were removed, there clearly was an attempt to "refine the difference".

On 4/12/2017 at 23:04, Binky said:

Besides all of the sleuthing (and common sense) posted here regarding this imaginative bauble, there are a few more salient points that don't stand up to the 'for non-Christians', label. What is present at the apex of the Crown? An orb, surmounted by a cross. In Christian monarchies (of whatever particular faith tradition, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant), orbs are pieces of insignia symbolising Christ's domination over the world (utterly inappropriate in non-Christian contexts).

Secondly - the white and blue enamelled cross itself, the badge of the order, is in the form of variation of a Maltese Cross (finished), another symbol of Christ and equally inappropriate in a non-Christian context.

While I see your logic I can only partially agree with it. Take a look at all Russian orders for non-Christians (St.George, St.Ann, St.Stanislaus, etc). While the image of the saint (or his/her cypher/monogram) has been removed from the center medallion and replaced with the imperial eagle, the shape of the order (cross) remained the same. Yet, all Russian non-Christians had no issue with that and were proudly wearing those awards. 

Also Russian imperial eagle has an orb with the cross and the crown (actually, a few) with the cross on top of those.  Its (eagle's) image was placed on the center medallions of those non-Christian orders (with all those crosses). Again, there hasn't been any issue with that. So, strange enough, but it seems that only the image of the saint (and/or his/her cypher/monogram) was the problem. 

To complicate this matter even more, Russian imperial eagle has the heraldic shield on its breast with the image of St.George on it. And, ironically, it was OK to display that St.George on any of the non-Christian orders. In other words, they removed the big image of St.George just to replace it with its smaller version, on the shield of imperial eagle.

Go figure... 

On 8/11/2016 at 11:31, Elmar Lang said:

From what I remember, this isn't actually a butchered order, but the group of a "self-styled" order, made with the basis of a St. Sava one.

Honestly, I don't remember the exact name of this "honour", but it should have been something like the "Imperial, Byzantine Order of the Crown": I remember an identical set in the shop of Messrs. Cravanzola/Gardino of Rome in 2010, shortly before the sale and closure of their ancient shop in via del Corso. This one could be the same group (but the badge was suspended to a red sash).

I also just saw this topic. If this were a "Byzantine Crown order" why would it have the crown of Lombardy in the center medallion?

As of today no reply from the museum. I tried to contact them twice.

Thank you very much, Gordon. I will contact the museum. Hope they speak some English as I do not speak any Hungarian.

Personally I believe this dagger is original. I have never seen such nickel (or chromium) plating and etching of any of the fake blades. And such hallmark, which is also etched, not stamped. Also the coat of arms on the cross guard is completely different from the "usual" enameled ones as well as the etching on the scabbard.

What especially convinces me in the originality of this dagger is its size. All its parts are noticeably larger than the corresponding ones of the "regular" fireman's dagger. If it were a fake the forgers would have to make bigger dyes in order to produce those parts. Such dyes would have cost considerable amount of money. So, the only way to offset those costs and make some profit would be to make a significant number of such fakes. Yet, nobody I talked to has never seen anything like that.

What do you think of this one? It's 50% larger than the usual one. Could it be general's (if such rank existed among Hungarian firefighters) or else?

Wow, sank you.

But I am wondering: Not much sold...is sere - in your opinion - a general tendency in medal collecting?

People are not willing to pay as much money as auctioneers think / want to have?

Sis is very strange...

There are two different approaches to selling items at any auctio: "ascending" and "descending". The first one means placing items in the auction catalog at a very low price to intensify bidding. Normally this is done when the consignor either doesn't care for how much the item sells (estate liquidation and etc) or is willing to gamble. Often such approach causes the price to go higher than normal (when people see $100 opening price for $1000 item they tend to lose their guard and bid higher than they would have done otherwise). However, it also means that, occasionally, an item could be sold lower than the normal retail price, so somebody gets a bargain.

Another approach is to put items in the auction catalog at retail prices or even slightly higher and see what happens. This is usually done when the consignor has unreasonably high price expectations or simply does not want to sell his items below a certain price (often the case when the consignor is a professional dealer). Some of the items sell at opening prices, but not as many as in the first case. However, once the auction is over, usually there are quite a few "low-ball" (below the estimate) offers coming from a number of customers. The job of the auction house is to deliver those offers to consignors. Some of them (many) subsequently get accepted, some don't. This way every consignor knows for sure that he has not sold the item too cheaply, yet he looses a chance to sell the item for higher price than normal. These approaches could be viewed as "aggressive" and "conservative"s.

At every auction there is always a mix of consignors of both types. Hence, there are often cases when two items, which are exactly the same, are offered at significantly (could be a couple times) different starting prices. Such discrepancy only means that two different consignors are using two different strategies. Also, when you see the result list with too few items sold, that is only a part of the picture (tip of the iceberg, so to speak). In order to have a complete picture (which only the auction house does) one needs to know how many items (and for what prices) have been sold in the post-auction sale.

But Seriously!

Item number; 384. Slovakia, Medal of Slovakian merit w / crown........

What a nonsense!!!

A notable auction house would at least get the country right in a printed catalogue for heaves sake!

It's a Hungarian medal..

Good try anyway..

Cheers!

Péter

The item indeed was Hungarian. But the consignor insisted that it got some Slovakian connection. Hence it was placed in that section of the catalog. This (placing items from one country in a different section) is a common practice if the prospective buyer is likely to look for them in that section. For instance, Georgian order of Tamara is often found in German (it was given mostly to Germans) or Russian (those are the ones who mostly collect it) sections of auction catalogs. You can find such examples in most of catalogs.

Maybe a short addition: I think that this company called "medalhouse" will disappear sooner or later from the dealers or auctions market respectively.

No real communication, no real responsible persons who respond to questions etc. etc.

Let's hope all items that have been sold now and earlier have been original and no copies.

Detlef

I am not sure what Mr. "Misiu" (or Detlef) means. There has been a slight delay with sending invoices for a few successful bidders at the recent MedalHouse auction. But other than that there were no communication issues whatsoever. Besides, there was no bidder named Detlef at the recent auction. Hence, I am not sure what kind of communication or response he expects to receive.

but the picture quality is poor

The PDF catalog indeed has only low-resolution pictures. The only reason of that is size consideration. Even as it it (picture quality 72 DPI) it "weights" over 13 Mb. The version with high-quality pictures "weights" over 300 Mb and is simply too "large/heavy" to be available for download (not to mention that it could "freeze" the entire website once large number of people starts downloading such a monster ).

However, there is also "flash" version available here:

http://medalhouse.com/pdf/swf/index.html

it downloads quite fast and picture quality is sufficient (with possibility for magnification).

In a little while the catalog should be available for download from www.medalhouse.com

Well, another Order of the Precious Rod (aka Order of Vajra or Order of Tusalakchi Gun (its Mongolian name)), 2nd class (on the red ribbon) will be sold at the MedalHouse auction on October 17, 2009 in Helsinki, Finland. The order is made of gilded silver (with Imperial Russian hallmarks) and comes with original box of issue. Starting price is only 1000 Euro, but I am sure it will go much higher...

Hipnos (and others),

Thank you very much for your help.

Miguel,

Thank you very much for your help. Could you please answer a few more questions:

More in these Times, after the Spanish naval forces defeat at Cuba and Philippines; the American navy became a Great Power and for extension any mention to an Navy in the American Continent only can refer to the US Navy...so the wide appelative: "American navy" or Marina Americana.

Given the relationship between Spain and US during that time frame (1875-1925) do you think an American naval officer could have received Spanish order? If so, do you know of any specific occasions?

This mean exactly this: United states American Navy must be directly translated as: Marina de los estados unidos, but in habitual talking "Marina Americana", that in they exactly translation is.: "American navy", represent the same thing.

Even though the "US Navy" was "Marina Americana" in the common language was it possible to say that on a more official level? Like in newspapers or government documents? I mean, for instance, between 1917 and 1991 most Russians were commonly called "Soviets", yet it was more of a jargon word, and all official documents would always refer to the USSR and never to Soviets. Was it that same with "Marina Americana" vs "Marina de los Estados Unidos"? For example, could the king of Spain in his official speach addressed to the US sailors say "Marina Americana", or it was more of a slang word?

The use of the treatament "Mr." is characteristical of the epoch. They never mind to name an American (officially) Sr or "se?or?, but Mister. (of Course!)

Was this attitude applicable only towards Americans or any other foreigners? How would someone from France or Italy be called? "Sr" or their native name for that?

Thank you again for your help.

Gregory

More thoughts on the "Mr" issue. Given, that the rest of the inscription is in Spanish, couldn't it just be that all orders given to foreigners bear "Mr" inscription? I mean, do you really think, that based on awardee's nationality they would have written in each case "Mr", "Herr", "Msr", "Sg" and etc?

The picture is attached. I don't think the order was awarded to an American. I am not to good in Spanish (hipnos, please help), but wouldn't US Navy spell something like "Marina Esados Unidos dos Americanos"? I mean, Marina Americana (American Navy) is not exactly the same thing as US Navy. Or is it in Spanish?

Gentlemen,

Recently I have purchased Spanish Naval Merit order (2nd Class Breast Star, white distinction, 1870-1925 type) with original presentation box. There is an inscription on the upper lid/cover of the box, which reads as follows: "Al Cap. C. De La M. A. Mr. M. Sachs". With some help from my Spanish friend and some imagination I have transcribed it as "Al Capitan Corvette de la Marina Alemania Mr. M. Sachs" (sorry about my Spanish spelling; I know it's awful). In English that should read as: "The Corvette Captain of the German Navy Mr. M. Sachs".

It is my understanding that "Corvette Captain" ("Corvetten Capit?n") was, actually, an officer's rank in the German Navy. Can anybody advice if it's possible to research the guy? The type of the order suggests that it was given sometime between 1870 and 1925. Given the political situation after 1918, most likely (but not 100% though) the order was issued before the end of WWI. Do you know if it's possible to look up the guy through the rank lists? Has there been some well-known event when a number of German Naval officers received such awards?

One more thing. While I am pretty sure that my decyphering of the inscription is right, there is something that bothers me. If the awardee was German why the sign says "Mr.(!!!) M. Sachs"? Wouldn't it be more natural to write "Herr M. Sachs"? On the other hand, given that the rest of the inscription is in Spanish, "Mr." doesn't make much sence anyway. Besides, the only other two options I could think of for "M.A." would be "Argentinian Navy" (makes no sence) and "Austrain Navy" (not sure how "Austria" spells in Spanish and, again, problem with Mr. vs Herr). And, afterall, last name "Sachs" sounds as German as it gets...

Any help, thoughs, ideas would be greatly appreciated.

EITZE,

Do you know if there is a book (similar to the GMVK one you mentioned) that lists all recipients of the medal of the Prussian Crown order (I believe there were 5038 of them in total)?

Gentlemen,

Unfortunately, there was no word from experts in the last week. I tried to do some research on my own and found the following:

German troops in China in 1900-1901 (Copyright: Axis History Forum, http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=58473 )

Kiaochow Garrison

In China at start of hostilities:

III Seebataillon(1126 men)

One Marine Horse artillery Battery(111 men)

Kommando Detachment(800 men,some mounted,and raised from civilian volunteers)

Sailors(Matrosen) from the East Asian squadron.

Ostasiatischen ExpeditionKorps

Despatched from Germany 1900.

1. Ostasiatische Infanteriebrigade

1 Ostasiatische Regiment

2 Ostasiatische Regiment

2. Ostasiatische Infanteriebrigade

3 Ostasiatische Regiment

4 Ostasiatische Regiment

Each Infantrie Regiment consisted of only two battalions,of 812 men each.

Ostasiatisches Reiterregiment

600 men.

Ostasiatisches Feld - Artillerieregiment

Three gun and one howitzer batteries.

Ostasiatisches Pionierbataillon

Korps Troops-sanitation,train,munitions,support

5. Ostasiatische Regiment - ? (unclear)

Is my understanding correct that only the following units belonged to the Navy:

- III Seebataillon(1126 men)

- One Marine Horse artillery Battery(111 men)

- Sailors(Matrosen) from the East Asian squadron

and the rest were Army (Infantry, Artillery, cavalry, etc.)

On the same forum I have found the following:

...There was also "Marine Expeditionary Force", which arrived on the theatre before the "East Asian Expeditionary Force" on August 15th near Taku:

- 1st Seebataillon from Kiel

- 2nd Seebataillon from Wilhelmshaven

- a mobile Marine field battery

- a Marine engineer detachment

- medical service

Does that mean that there were about 4000-5000 German Naval soldiers in China in August 1900, before first "Army" units arrived?

I also found a great site about Boxer Rebellion, but, unfortunately, it's all in German

http://www.boxeraufstand.com/

Does anybody have a history of I and II Seebataillonen? I still hope to find an awardee who received Russian silver medal but did not get the MEZ. Did the Crown order medal go only to NCOs/Unteroffizieren and up or to enlisted as well?

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your input (and, especially, to EITZE for posting all those scans). Could you please clarify a few more things for me:

1. What was the award criteria for Prussian Crown Order medal in German Navy at the turn of the century? I mean, what (generally) it would have been given for? Could it be awarded to soldiers (seesoldaten) or it was only reserved for NCOs/unteroffizieren and up? Could those from other Federal lands get it or it was only reserved to Prussians?

2. What was German order of battle in China in 1900-01? I mean, beside III Seebatailon were there any other units participating in the events? If so, what were those and what was the total number of German armed forces personnel involved in the conflict?

Thank you in advance

eitze,

Thank you so much for these pictures I went through all of them but was unable to find any mention of "silver" medal(s). In your earlier post you said that 2 gold and 2 silver medals were given for Tientsien actions. Do you have the list of those soldiers as well? I mean, all the pictures you provided refer to "Peking Defenders" (III Seebatailion, 1-4 Companies). Who was in Tientsien then?

eitze,

Thank you so much for your information. Would it be possible to ask you to scan the page(s) that list all soldiers awarded with Russian medals and post it on the forum? Thank you in advance.

Bernd,

Thank you very much for the photo. Now I am 100% sure that what was named "russische goldene Kriegs-Verdienst-Medaille" in the Milit?rwochenblatt was NOT the Bravery medal. You see, Russian Bravery (Tapferkeit - "Khrabrost") medal was only awarded on St. George ribbon (yellow and black stripes) regardless of class, awardee's rank or significance of the deed. However, on the picture you provided the medal hangs from St. Alexander ribbon (dark red). Therefore, there is no way it could have been Bravery medal. Must be something else.

On the other hand, Zeal medal could have been awarded in a variety of sizes (from 28 mm to 50 mm), metals (gold and silver) and ribbons (St. Stanislaus, St. Anne, St. Vladimir and St. Alexander) to show awardee's rank/social status (merchant, government official, servant etc) and the level (or the degree) of the deed (from long service to money donation). In other words, Zeal medal was sort of can-be-used-just-for-anything medal. So it would be natural to issue it to German troops in China for some allied duties. In which case, NCOs and Unteroffizieren would have gotten the gold medal ("goldene Kriegs-Verdienst-Medaille") and enlisted men would have received silver medal (both medals would come on different ribbons to signify awardee's rank).

Rick,

Could you please provide more information as to the award criteria for the medal of the order of Crown to German Naval personnel. I mean, was it a long service award or low-grade bravery decoration? Did the guy actually had to do something to get it or it was more like EKII in 1918? Thank you in advance.

Bernd,

Thank you for your reply. When the information about Russian awards to German Marines (especially about Russian China Commemorative Medal) was published in the Milit?rwochenblatt (year and month)? Also I am not exactly sure what you mean by "Russian golden War Merit Medal". There was no such medal in Imperial Russia. If the awardees were NCOs or enlisted they could have gotten golden Bravery medal (1st or 2nd class). It's highly unlikely though, as, normally, soldiers would have gotten 4th or 3rd (silver) classes first before getting any of the higher classes of this medal.

Also all Russian Bravery medals ("Za Khrabrost") of all classes were numbered. Does Milit?rwochenblatt say anything about medals' serial numbers?

One more thought. Is there a chance that all recipients of Russian (and any other foreign) medals for China were published in the Milit?rwochenbl?tter sometime in late 1901 or 1902?