Jacques

I found a name (SCHIBAU, RK tr?ger) who was warded the SC in gold and the "cruz blanca"

the one you shown is in my collection; here is another one.

I put together the illustration below some time ago for my own reference. I think it mirrors what Jacques said above. I'm sure there are period exceptions, and it does not account for the award of the Medalla de Sufrimientos, or non-combatant awards. But overall, it might be helpful.

very helpfull; the cruz blanca is missing

For those who died in Spain, I guess they only received the "Medalla de la Campana" and the "Medalla de sufrimientos por la Patria".

Question: What grade(s) of Spanish Cross was typically associated with the Spanish Red Military Service Cross? Either Bronze or Silver? Silver only? Unfortunately, my archive of black & white photos of SCW vets do not reveal a clear answer.

Thanks!

I can't find a rule concerning the attribution and connexion between spanish crosses classes and awarded spanish decorations. Checking my files (period pictures and registered letters recapitulative of the decorations owned) I would say:

Gold : Medalla Militar + Medalla de la campana , Cruz de guerra + Medalla de la campana

silver with swords : cruz roja + Medalla de la campana, cruz blanca + Medalla de la campana, Cruz de guerra + Medalla de la campana, medalla de la campana

silver without swords : ?

bronze with swords : cruz roja + Medalla de la campana, cruz blanca + Medalla de la campana, medalla de la campana

bronze without swords: medalla de la campana, nothing

Or this one could it be a Godet ?

Hi,

To find GOdet, it could be an idea to look on the "900" stamped crosses. 2 or 3 or these crosses are still categorized into "unknown maker" file. The solution is may be there !

Harald Geissler in is article (IMM) said that there were stamped 900, but he didn't show a pic.

jacques

could this one be a Godet ?

Harrier & MasterBo, very nice and quality stuff

Harrier, I'm not confortable with the drop tail eagles crosses, and I expressed my opinion which engage me alone. I'm not an expert as Detlev, Forman or W&H and I don't want to be. Each collector must build his own opinion with our ones all over the various dedicated forums, the available books and collections. I like these discussions where each of us bring something to build the wall, without saying i'm right you're wrong. I'm may be wrong and passed on several good stuff, I just gave few defending points to my opinion, and my mind remains open.

On another way, I'm still looking for a Godet cross. I still not have idenfied one (not saying the diamonds one). Is anyone has an idea ? which one of the unmarked or just "900" stamped crosses were made by Godet ?

jacques

display

No, he is not L?tzow. L?tzow was promoted Hauptmann on Nov 1937.

I guess he is Schlichting.

jacques

P.S. Nice to see that ALL the officers receiving the "Brilliants" still have down-tail eagles on their uniforms.

They just wear the uniform they had before to go to Spain. These guys came back from Spain 1937-1938 and worn their previous LW uniforms.

those who made the last turn still wear the LC brown uniform, like Richthofen.

I've the new Forman's book. It is interesting with very nice pictures, either I don't agree all what he wrote.

Concerning Diamonds, period pictures exist showing recipients during and just after the ceremony (May 31th). It seems that posthume recipients did receive the same cross. I don't know for the two last ones, Galland and Balthasar, but I don't see why they couldn't had received the same. Godet made these crosses. 2 patterns exist from this manufacturer, silver gilded and tombac gilded.

jacques

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235330114.jpgLove that "German precision"! Cross upside down and no mention of those w/o swords! (Jacques' photo)

this picture s from a period newspaper. Here is one of the pages dealing with the spanish cross institution from the "RGB".

It is a nice bronze cross, those which were officially awarded.

jacques

Nice cross Harrier,

Difficult to give an opinion on a picture and an explaination concerning the two tones cross. May be the cross was exposed several years to the light while the reverse remained protected. colour varies from dark bronze to gold bronze , for the same manufacturer. I suppose it depended of the colour of the bath, but why two- tones ?

We still have much to learn, discover and elucidate on the spanish crosses...

the regulations RGB are very clear concerning the different classes.

jacques

Sorry for the multiple replies, but here is the link to the variant Spanish Cross being sold by "emedals" (the board contents have now been broken down into individual pieces).

http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GRL594

And here is the link, on that same site, to another "4" piece, with the "regular" eagles. Compare the soldering, which seems to me to be almost identical.

http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GRL590#bigPic

These board are a bit controversed. I remember to have read somewhere that they had been builded up with not only S&L medals, but that's not the topic. I saw these on Emedal, and I'm a bit surprised to see a gold cross without swords

I was thinking to one possible explaination: I'm still convinced that these drop tail eagles are post-war, but look at the eagles used on the medals bar ribbons of the " Lw Dienstmedaille". It could be possible they used this kind of eagle, it seem they have quite the same size as the common SC one. they could have took temporally what was available at the very moment for a couple of crosses?? this could explain (partially) the quality of the eagles on some crosses; crosses which retain an original body. But if it the case, It concern only a very low number of crosses.

jacques

Isonzo,very nice crosses. the second one looks mint !

could you share the reverse ?

jacques

Nice crosses Isonzo!

Jacques, Harrier, What is your opinion about the droop-tail eagles on the case top for the next-of-kin medal?

Hi Scott,

that's right ! original case for the Next-of-kin shows a drop tail eagle stylized on the top. I've No explaination

jacques

the Spanish cross was instituted on April 14th, 1939, and the crosses were awarded from May 31st to 4th June. Very few manufacturers were involved in this first serie (Juncker, Meybauer, Deumer, Godet, Steinhauer), the other manufacturers IMO intervened later for private market/purchase. This bunch of manufacturers had to make around 25000 crosses in a short time ! In 1939, the last form of the LW eagle was already used on uniforms and caps, so no logical reason to choose the old pattern design.

Your Steinhauer cross is marked "4"; this mark was used after 1941 by the firm, and not for the early production.

Attached is a period german magazine page presenting LC medals.

At least , it is an interesting discussion. I hope more collectors will come.

jacques

Except for multiple reported "vet bringbacks" of "drop-tailed" eagle Spanish Crosses, the foregoing posts constitute all the evidence I am aware of regarding the possible existence of these variants. They have been discussed repeatedly (but almost always viciously) in other forums.

It is my PROPOSAL that drop-tailed eagle Spanish Crosses constituted a "jumping of the gun" by some manufacturers who believed the Luftwaffe eagle used in 1936 would be the one used on the awards, based, perhaps, on confusing official designs. It MAY even have been that the design started off as "drop-tail", progressed to "alternating eagles" of each type, and then settled on the final "swoop-tail" version (adopted by the Luftwaffe in 1937, and transitioned in on uniforms over the next 2 years) seen on almost all awards, all in a very short time span.

There are certainly multiple postwar fakes of the Spanish Cross using the "drop-tail" design. ALL of these fakes, in my personal observation, lack the quality of wartime pieces and, indeed, many are sloppy castings.

At this point, NONE of this can be proved absolutely and there are no photographs discovered so far which are clear enough to definitively establish that a cross being worn is of the "drop-tail" variety (although some are close).

Just something to think about, with an open mind....

P.S. Jacques - I understand fully your feeling and appreciate it. I will post photos of two different eagles, with the suggestion that they are not crude or ugly. By the way, the last several posts are NOT my photos or of items I have.

Hi Harrier,

I can't believe these drop tail eagles crosses original. these eagles are particularly crude. look at the difference between your last two Steinhauer. the first, which I guess original has the typical Steinhauer eagle, the second has drop tail eagles; why Steinhauer should have made so ugly eagles at the middle to the end of the war instead of the previous ones ? you can see the soldering at the top of the wings on your second cross. I don't have it in hands, but could it be possible that fake eagles could have been soldered to an original base?

Concerning Doehle images, they are drawings and not pictures.

Except very few crosses, like the one you shown, all the drop tail eagles crosses shown typical fake construction (pin, hinge, hook, swords gips, etc..), this why I don't think they are war period, but much more post-war made. May be some were made very early after the war, using original base stocks, as souvenirs for GI's; and the others are 70's-80's fakes.

I've no proof, it is just deduction, logic, and feeling; so this statement only engage myself. I prefer to avoid these drop tail eagles crosses and I consider them as fakes or post-war made.

here is a picure shared by CHE, and it is one of the cross with diamonds I consider original.

Hi,

thanks for the kind words.

I personnally don't like the diamonds cross you shown. I prefer to stick to Godet marked ones, if I had the cash to buy one (which it'll never be ..)

jacques

none of these two crosses is a Meybauer

Hi Harrier,

the bronze cross looks to the one-piece variant.

the silver one is marked 900 within a cartridge, and it is an unknown manufacturer to me.

great crosses

jacques

What, no diamonds gentlemen? Ha! - a stunning collection of crosses for sure

I only have one - an '835'. I aim to get a nice gold and bronze w/swords to keep it company...someday.

nice 835 :beer:

Bronze w/swords = S&L (4)

Silver w/ swords = marked '900' and I THINK Meybauer

Gold w/swords = L/13 (Meybauer)

Bronze w/o swords = unmarked and, I believe, Meybauer

Silver w/o swords = L/18 (Mayer - Pforzheim)

Regretably, I am not the real expert on manufacturers that you are!

show better pics and the reverse please.

jacques