Bison

Hello again

Add to the list above:

'Edmond Lemaître', 'Gaston Lemaître' and 'Lemaître Fils'

'A. René', 'A Marie Stuart'

'Ouizille et Lemoine'

... and probably many others...

Regards

Bison

Hi Tim,

Picture 1: This is the official mark of 'la Monnaie de Paris', the official French manufacturer for coins and medals.

Picture 2 and 3: It is George AUCOC without any doubt. You can see easily the famous "walking wolf".

Pictures 4 & 5: It is a mark of guarantee for silver and gold (double head of hoar and eagle). When the medal is too small to stamp separately gold and silver, this mark is to be used.

Unfortunately there are no 'official' list of manufacturers...

Amongst the most well known, we can find (for the Third Republic):

La Monnaie de Paris (obviously)

Arthus-Bertrand

Albert Désiré Marie

Georges or Louis Aucoc

Adrien Chobillon

Bacqueville

Marius or Paul Delande

Boullanger

... and many others, I shall check my notes this evening.

Regards

Bison

With the head of eagle mark for gold:

And a very thick rosette on the ribbon, which is a characteristic of Aucoc.

Regards

Bison

Reverse:

Hello again

And to be complete, here is a typical "Aucoc" model in solid gold:

Hi Tim,

I am not sure we are speaking about the right "AUCOC" jeweller.

I do not know André AUCOC as medals and orders maker. As far as I am concerned, I just know Louis AUCOC and Georges AUCOC who had really made a lot of Légion d'honneur.

Here below is a model from Georges Aucoc, son of Louis Aucoc, Jeweller, 9 rue du quatre Septembre, Paris

The Aucoc's mark is

<G

[a walking wolf]

A>

(sorry, but on this Légion d'honneur, half of the mark is missing)

And another mark of Louis & Georges Aucoc (probably during the period the father was still alive) was this one where you can see the "walking wolf":

Hi Tim

With your last pictures, I am sure it is Chobillon.

Here are some shots of this mark on different orders of my collection:

This mark was used from 1905 to 1979, and the shop of Adrien Chobillon was in Paris, 21-22 Galerie de Montpensier, Palais Royal. The activities of Chobillon Company started circa 1840, but another mark was used before 1905.

Regards

Bison

Nice model indeed, and relatively scarce in this condition.

For the mark, it looks like Adrien Chobillon, A X C... a pretty well known manufacturer, like Aucoc.

See THIS

Regards

Bison

Hi

To Rob : your hallmarks seem to be from Delande (Marius or Paul?). The hallmark is: [M - a bee - D](before 1942) or [P - a bee - D](after 1942).

To Tim : your hallmark is not for silver. If it was silver, the hallmark must be in a diamond and not in a square. Square is devoted to bronze and all common metals but not for silver (or silver gilt), gold and platinum.

Regards

Bison

If I may...

The address "bcaam-pau@dsn.sga.defnse.gouv.fr" is not valid, the right one is: "bcaam-pau@dsn.sga.defense.gouv.fr".

I am pretty sure that, with the help of Paul, you will succeed!

Hi Bison

This is the war ship that was used in the 1859 Italian Campaign?

Hi Yankee

Oups, I was mistaken, sorry.

The right ship during the Crimea War and the Italian Campaign is a paddle frigate launched in 1845, like this one :

Regards

I think it is:

"Premier Maître de manoeuvre LAVAGNE"

Cuirassé LE VAUBAN...

You can find one here (in english): http://www.arthus-bertrand.com/en/e-store/decorations/french_national_orders/national_order_of_merit/9631010102/6_mm_rosette_officer.html

Regards

Les français sont bien different de nous autres.

C'est bien le problème ...

This is the point ...

But these two Orders are certainly linked with the huge career of this 'Compagnon de la Libération'. He certainly worked for Veteran associations and was certainly involved in youth education institutions after the WWII. This could explain these two orders (social life and sport education). It is not an isolated case.

Begards

Bison (who does'nt feel very different... sometimes)

The first two ribbons of the bottom row are :

- Officier du Mérite Social (1936 - 1963)

- Officier du Mérite Sportif (1956 - 1963)

Regards

Paul

Thank you for clearing this story of gold bar which is currently running around... and in which I believed up to now.

Unfortunately I don't have this cut out bar in my collection, only the bronze model.

I personaly met at least two officers who were in Kolwezi with the REP, and they used to wear the model with bronze bar, probably as replacement (?). I never dare to ask them about this kind of detail...

Regards

Bison

And another question - Bison, could you enlighten me more on the "famous" part of the "another pic of the famous 'Kolwezi' special bar" ?

Thomas,

As far as I know, this 'specia'l bar is in solid gold and was given to the troops who stayed in Za?re after the Kolwezi airborne operation in 1978.

The full story here: http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/reso...odom2/odom2.asp

Those who were back to France were awarded with the 'regular' bronze one.

The name of this cross is 'croix de la bravoure'. Arthus-Bertrand was the manufacturer.

I assume the gold bars were locally made. Some copy exist.

Regards

Bison

And another pic of the famous 'Kolwezi' special bar model:

They are all ok, however the middle one is the type that was awarded to local Zaire troops, not the type for the 2 REP at Kolwezi. While they got the same medal, their Ops Shaba bar is a cut out bar, not a solid bar like this.

Absolutly right !

Its like being kicked in the balls.

Hi Barry

Ouh la la... it was not my aim...

The 'Presidence' Type was very ephemere. It is not listed in the Vernon's collectors' guide, and it is a lack.

There were many variations, starting in 1848.

1. The Decree of 12 SEPT 1848 instituted the mention "Bonaparte 1er Consul", without crown as suspender.

2. The Decree of 31 DEC 1851 re-established a Crown as suspender and the mention "NAPOLEON EMP. DES FRANCAIS" (so-called Presidence type)

3. The Decree of 16 MAR 1852 re-established an Imperial Eagle on the reverse.

Therefore, one can find all the combinations with these three close rules. The 2nd Empire Type was definitely established during the years 1852 - 1853.

Regards

Hi Tim, Rob and everyone interested in this topic,

"P" [lightning] "L" stands for "Paul Lecl?re", "J"[cross]"B" stands for "Janvier - Berchot".

Both are medals manufacturers in the 20's.

It is funny to note that "LECLERE" is pronounced in French "L'ECLAIR" which means "Lightning"...

Bison

....

This hallmark represents a head of boar like this:

It is a legal proof for silver for the period starting from 1838.

Therefore, it is a "Presidence" model, made just before the reinstallation of the 2nd Empire in 1852.

Usually, the 1st Empire model have no ribbons (but two exceptions known in the L?gion d'honneur Museum in Paris, and another in the Royal Army Museum in Brussels).

The centers were made in several parts, two or three...

In 1851,then the future Napoleon III (he was then President) restored the L?gion d'honneur like it was during the Empire, a large number of medals were made, especially for the veterans and for his supporters.

But they were slightly different, and sometimes create nowadays some confusion.

Anyway, it is a beautiful model. But far less scarce than a pure Type IV.

All this to share a little knowledge about this fantastic medal.

Thanks again for these beautiful pictures. I'd like to have this piece in my own collection.

Regards

Bison

Hi Bear

Thank you for these fantastic pictures!

They confirm my feeling, it is a "Pr?sidence" model and not a Type IV of the 1st Empire.

You can see there a little hallmark on the ribbons of the observe:

Explanation in my following post...

L?gion-d?Honneur- Type IV

Hi Bear,

Are you sure it is a Type IV?

There is a hallmark on the ribbons at 06:00, I should not be surprised if it is a small head of boar.

Is there any other hallmark on the ring?

This model is showing all the characteristics of a "Presidence" one (1851 - 1852).. but it could be also a 'hybrid' one.

And I may be wrong ...

Regards

Bison

Yes, I was a little bit severe! I apologize.

This site is presenting excellent pics and overviews on French medals and decorations. It is rare to find such detailed informations. And you are right, especially in this domain, nothing can be totally perfect.

This is a very useful website for French medals.