Yankee

maker mark on neck

Hi Scottplen

Very nice Saxon/Bulgarian bar & to have the signature of maker is certainly a plus since so many are found without.

Sincerely

Yankee

GST 182, 362 and 451 are fine originals.

GST 281, 290 and 408 unfortunately not, why someone wants such a rare pieces so cheap sale?????

Greetings Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks for that. I guess they would be rare now since there are more fakes then orginals out there. All the best.

Sincerely

Brian

GST 182, 362 and 451 are fine originals.

GST 281, 290 and 408 unfortunately not, why someone wants such a rare pieces so cheap sale?????

Greetings Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks for that. I guess they would be rare now since there are more fakes then orginals out there. All the best.

Sincerely

Brian

Sascha, I just looked over the emedals site, and you are quite right. Items GST 290 and GST 281 are these fakes. I deal with Barry quite a lot, so I will contact him about this.

Barry is a good guy and certainly should be made aware so he can take proper action. Only experts such as RAO ( his area ) could catch this, even dealers can get fooled. Luckily they are kind enough to share their knowledge in the collector community & we are able to learn from them in their field of expertise.

Hello Gentlemen

Is GST 451 on page 5 also suspect? In regards to Red Eagle 3rd class GST 182 page 9 is that also suspect that RAO can't identigy Eagle. I ask of this so I or any memeber don't in the future trip on one of these false designs.

Sincerely

Yankee

Hello everyone:

Scott, RAO is 100% correct and knows what he is talking about. These copies are well-known in Germany. Sorry!

Yankee, yes there ARE nice-looking (at arm's length anyway) GOLD RAO II and III copies out there. I have seen them offered by someone from Hamburg. They are well made, but not as good as the originals. I think that perhaps they were being made by jewelers to the east of Germany (Poland?, Russia?, etc......).

Caveat emptor!

"SPM"

Hi SPM

Thanks for confirming this sad news. I have seen some with a very bright yellow gold and a shine to the white enamel perhaps that is a indication of recent manufacture. The Red Eagle maker marks I suppose would be most easy to forge since it is a simple initial on the arm. Just amazed somebody would go through the trouble of making a bar and sticking bad pieces, now 3rd class pieces could be suspect on a bar.

Sincerely

Yankee

Hello RAO

Just learned something knew, never imagined 4th classes would be copied. Thought that was reserved for the higher grades. Is this the same situation for the 3rd class Red Eagle in gold as well? Lately have seen plenty of 3rd class examples & now not so certain of orginality. If there are fakes in 3rd class are the copies easy to spot or more difficult then the 4th class examples. Thanks

Sincerely

Yankee

hello'

not sure some sort of unoffial medal matches dates on other one

I was unable to find it any of my books, so it must be as you say. It is a very well smart designed, detailed medal that I think is the bust of Luitpold. Very nice bar Thanks to post the fine examples.

Sincerely

Brian

heres another one with bars tsekingkwawn,fouphing

Hi Scottplen

What is the last medal on the bar?

This is a typical Wennberg FrO 3b with swords (untipical at this example is the medaillon ring in normal gold, instead of the for this manufacturer usual redgold).

Many kind thanks for pointing out what material the swords should be made from. Your foto is absolutely well detailed, can see clearly that Wennberg piece is clearly superior in quality then the other firms. I guess prior to WWl the jewelers didn't look to cut corners.

Sincerely

Brian

Otto Wennberg was in busines from 1903 until 1915. The case shown is only produced in 1914/15 when Ott Wennberg produced the FrO 3b with swords. The FrO 3b shown here is definitely not a Wennberg, it is a 1914/15 produced cross from the manufacturer Eduard Foehr. The art of connection of the swords is not a question of period, only a question of the manufacturer (the double eyelet system for example is only used by the Stuttgart Mint). Foehr for Example always fixed the swords directly to the cross...

The very early 1914 (and early 1915) WWI Friedrich Orders are always in gold and not silver gilt.

Best regards

Matthias

Hi Matthias

Many thanks for your kind help in correcting me, bringing excellent detailed research into this topic. I just assumed that the order and case was a match since it was purchased together and a good fit. Are the Otto Wenning examples of the knight 2nd class swords in gold too or just the cross? By chance have you a picture of a Wenning example that you can share. Enjoyed touring your neat web site. Just read your excellent article on the St. Henry medal which was most informative in clearing up my confusion with Rothe era examples. The St.Henry medal 1848-9 is identical to the 1914-18? Thank you.

Sincerely

Brian

How about post #31?

Hi Wild Card

Thanks for the close up shot of the maker. I was amazed to see Rothe being the maker, were there any other makers from the 1866 & 1870 wars?

Sincerely

Yankee

Hi Miguel

The quality is excellent, more detailed then majority of the post WWl gold examples floating around. If it is gold, there would be hallmarks on the ring & loop prior 1866.

Sincerely

Brian

Post 1866

Gentlements: Here you Have a St Stephen I own...probably is a Siver gilded, jeweler copy, but I think that that the Workmanship is very good.

Some hints to find their origins...??

Regards

Miguel

Hi Miguel

The quality is excellent, more detailed then majority of the post WWl gold examples floating around. If it is gold, there would be hallmarks on the ring & loop prior 1866.

Sincerely

Brian

Hello Gentlemen

As I have discovered Austrian Hallmarks can be a very complex topic. It seems after 1866 they were introduced & after WWl still continued however different markings. Can anybody say for certain if the tax release stamp FR in a diamond punch are always to be found on post WWl examples or they can be found on orginal orders as well. The FR tax release stamp with rectangular punch are always to be pre 1921 & F.R (period in between) tax release with rectangular punch to be from 1866-72 period. I know FR gets confused with the firm Rothe on some sale lists which should not be the case...

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely

Yankee

Identical pattern for sure.

Hi Wild Card

your PM box is full

Hello Gentlemen

I'm no expert on Czarist shoulder boards, anybody say if this uniform belonged to an officer and is this style belonging to an elite guard regiment?

Thanks

Yankee

Ah! You're right.

Something that LOOKS like that... one of the Parma or Tuscan exiled awards, or ?......

Right you are, good eyes the Military Merit or Civil Merit of Tuscany. Issued on a red ribbon with black stripes.

I'll try to find a foto later to post.

Found an old picture that was taken in a Paris museum, thought the members would enjoy seeing this bar. Have no clue if this is the orginal uniform to the bar. Am I correct to think this bar is impossible to trace back to the owner?

Yankee

I am very interested by your idea that this might be a badge made in Vienna, possibly after Sadowa. It is quite new to me.

How could this be documented ? Frankly, my knowledge of this Order is very slim.

Would Wild Card be prepared to agree ? I cannot say how much I am grateful for your careful analysis of this unusual badge.

Thank you very much

Veteran

Hi Veteran

Rothe produced a great many foreign pieces, for how many other European Nations I'm not sure. It is known that the King of Hannover in exile ( post 1866 ) had Rothe produce the orders. Grand Duke of Tuscany too had his orders manufactured by Rothe also in exile. I have not seen a case by Rothe for a Guelph so I have no physical proof. However have seen a case for the Ernst August knight with Rothe stamped inside. If any member has a cased Guelph made by Rothe please scan to this topic

Sincerely

Brian

Thank you both for your considered opinions.

The pictures shown and the comments exchanged suggest the cross I have shown might have been custom made... or could it be an outright copy ?

The look of its metal is quite different from the obvious gold of badges illustrating your messages. I now have a hunch it might well be gilt silver.

Incidentally, it was bought in 1971 and not 1968 as first mentioned. But its was bought in London as stated from the shop in Piccadilly Arcades.

This exchange is very interesting; as a old salt in the collecting fraternity I am open to truly expert advice, and I am very grateful when it comes. I sincerely hope you will please let me benefit further from your fine knowledge of this order.

The badge, as it is, remains a question mark.

Best regards

Veteran

Hi Guys

At first I thought the badge might have been converted to breast wear, it would not be the first time. Not too long ago I picked up a Greek Redeemer commander ( Otto 1 ) and it was hung from a officers ribbon w/rosette. It was only the size that led me to know what class it was truely, for the officer & knight are fairly small. I see your point about the ribbon ring not turned, perhaps this particular jeweler made a mistake. After learning the badge might be a silver-gilt example instaed of gold, I now think it is a knight that was manufactured post 1866 in exile. It could very well be a Rothe made example, there quality was superb in the post 1866 and it would explain the size and not being gold. What I can't explain is the date on the reverse, for the jeweler did not do his homework or he just had a ton of spare parts.... The quality is certainly there so you have a good Guelph not to worry about a copy. Unfortunately I have not handled enough Guelphs to give you a better answer. Beautiful badges Wild Card & Veteran, you never get bored looking at them.

Sincerely

Brian

Hello Yankee and Wild Card

I have carefully read your exchange of well informed messages, and I am very impressed. Sorry I could not come up earlier on the forum.

The additionnal info I can supply is this : the badge is larger than the types you described - (54 x 33 mm). The date is clearly MDCCCXV. and the cypher GR. No hallmark or other markings.

Your debate about British and German makers is facinating. I am sorry I cannot bring any further information about this particular badge, except that it was bought from a then very young dealer in London, John Hayward (he has certainly made his own way since those days ....in 1968).

I therefore assumed that it was a British-made cross. The blue ribbon is venerable, but nothing proves it is original, of course.

Thank you for your further learned comments

Veteran

Hi Veteran

Thanks for your kind comment. I must say your measurements are a surprise. You might just have a commander grade. Perhaps Wild Card can comment on that, he might have a much clearer answer.

Sincerely

Brian

Well . . . after the targeted robbery that Markov suffered (no one was harmed, but was that mere luck?) . . . ????

Guns?? Ha ha ha. What a hormonal joke. Better for snuffing college students or hamburger customers.

Actually Ed this is no joke, last year there was a home invasion a few blocks away from where I live and the owner took it upon himself to shoot the criminals first or be at there mercy. Let us pray we are never faced with a break in over medals.......