Yankee

Well . . . after the targeted robbery that Markov suffered (no one was harmed, but was that mere luck?) . . . ????

Guns?? Ha ha ha. What a hormonal joke. Better for snuffing college students or hamburger customers.

That depends upon if you are willing to defend yourself and your property.

Thank you Yankee.

I just want to emphasize my statement ?...while the ?German? pieces tend to be dark blue.? Note ?tend to be?. Nine times out of ten, this applies; but thanks to that artistic license business, very little with this order is iron clad, except one thing that immediately comes to mind. With regard to all classes except the fourth class, if it is not gold, look elsewhere. Oh yes, good collars come in gold, silver/gold-plate and bronze/gold-plate.

This brings up something else regarding this order which perhaps I should not mention. Probably because of the complexity of it?s design and required finishing workmanship, or that ?if it isn?t gold, it isn?t good? or the relative lack of collecting interest, so far, this order is quite immune from fakes and forgeries.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Hi Wild Card

Will keep that in mind thanks for that. I agree all badges except the 4th class should be in gold not silver-gilt even the exiled examples. I came across only one copy in gold of a commander grade and it was rather crude as you pointed out rightly the intricate design would be a stumbling block to the vast majority of forgers. Strange that there would be not much interest for it is a most beautifully designed order, perhaps most collectors aim for the Empire era. Still they are hard to come by in any class..

Sincerely

Brian

And Chris' point is a sad but serious comment. Apart from all the ZAV that has shown up over the years, all the new self-proclaimed experts.... it is the fact that someone would MURDER another human being over these items that totally turns me off from collecting Militaria.

I have sold off everything..... I have zero interest in being any more of a target than I already am. Hence one of the primary reasons many of us hide behind (somewhat) anonymous screen-names.

Once upon a time, I was quite involved in antique tinplate trains.... I watched people show up at funerals, widow's doors, etc. trying to swoop in and buy collections and pieces for cheap. It disgusted me so much I stopped collecting and associating with any of these people to this day...

Murder a dealer, a collector or a recipient of an award simply to possess a "thing"...... how many people do you think will want to be on that list?

Not me..... at the point where a badge, a medal, a group becomes worth being killed.... it's time to say goodbye.

Oh sure, you can lock everything up in a vault, stare at the pictures of your collection on your computer screen... gosh what fun that will be.... Then instead of simply killing you.... the bad people will force you to watch the molestation and torture of your loved ones until you clean out your vault and deliver the goods..... and then they'll probably off you just the same.

Isn't collecting fun now?

It is most disturbing that a fellow human would murder another for a medal. One German online dealer has a site for crime and it is shocking . In the States I don't think we have that problem, perhaps the bad guys have no desire to cross oceans or face the possibility of Americans keeping guns in their homes. Under your scenario vaults are meaningless and you have a valid point. Let us hope the bad guys don't come ashore.

Yes. Disregarding ?1815? and ?1839? types, see post #5, as time went on, they grew from about 35.80 x 25.25 mm to around 45.4 x 30.00 mm or more. See below.

Please keep in mind that probably no other Imperial German order reflects, or suffers, more artistic license than the Order of the Guelphs. During it?s ?British? era at least half a dozen Jewelers were producing insignia; and things seem to have improved very little during the ?German? era; and each was pretty much left to their own interpretation. In my little collection alone, I have, or have had, pieces identified to J.J. Edwards, ?HLD?, Rentzsch, Rundell Bridge & Co. ..., E.V.W. Smith, Hamlet., P. Willet, Godet , Carl B?sch and others.

Another thing, but keep the artistic license in mind. Generally, with regard to the blue background in the motto ring, the ?British? pieces tend to be a light or sky blue while the ?German? pieces tend to be dark blue. So as the knight?s crosses grew, the blue got darker.

Hi Wild Card

Many thanks for posting both fine examples of a British and German made one to compare. I always knew the size and the Roman numerals was a factor in dating the era but never realized the blue enamel in the background of the motto was also key It a very old order and as you rightly point out there were many jewelers and I supppose many local ones as well producing their own taste & interpreatation of design which would explain all the slight variations. I assume many were reissued since it was cheaper then making a new batch of insignia. Thanks again

Sincerely

Brian

Yes. Disregarding ?1815? and ?1839? types, see post #5, as time went on, they grew from about 35.80 x 25.25 mm to around 45.4 x 30.00 mm or more. See below.

Please keep in mind that probably no other Imperial German order reflects, or suffers, more artistic license than the Order of the Guelphs. During it?s ?British? era at least half a dozen Jewelers were producing insignia; and things seem to have improved very little during the ?German? era; and each was pretty much left to their own interpretation. In my little collection alone, I have, or have had, pieces identified to J.J. Edwards, ?HLD?, Rentzsch, Rundell Bridge & Co. ..., E.V.W. Smith, Hamlet., P. Willet, Godet , Carl B?sch and others.

Another thing, but keep the artistic license in mind. Generally, with regard to the blue background in the motto ring, the ?British? pieces tend to be a light or sky blue while the ?German? pieces tend to be dark blue. So as the knight?s crosses grew, the blue got darker.

Hi Wild Card

Many thanks for posting both fine examples of a British and German made one to compare. I always knew the size and the Roman numerals was a factor in dating the era but never realized the blue enamel in the background of the motto was also key It a very old order and as you rightly point out there were many jewelers and I supppose many local ones as well producing their own taste & interpreatation of design which would explain all the slight variations. I assume many were reissued since it was cheaper then making a new batch of insignia. Thanks again

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Veteran

disregard a closer foto, it is an 1815 type. Just curious what are the measurements in mm, these early badges are smaller then the 1839 type.

Hello all.

This badge of the Hannoverian Order of the Guelphs with swords is rather flat. I wonder if its style could help date it ?

Every bit of information will be gratefully received

All the best

Veteran

Hi Veteran

You can date it from the reverse. The Roman numerals will either be MDCCCXXXIX EAR initials in center reverse Hannover award or MDCCCXV GR initials in center reverse for English/Hannover award. Very seldom knights they can be found dated by the actual year when manufactured. Nice badge I can't clearly make out your reverse with date, perhaps a larger scan would help.

Sincerely

Brian

True. I guess.

And you could also (almost) buy a VC group (if Lord Ashcan weren't in the bidding).

So???

Much less history in the collar and the VC group would at least be named (though it too, for that much money, wouldn't have too much history connected with it).

Thats a good one " Lord Ashcan " really funny. Cornering the market big time!!!!!!!!!!

For that much money you can own a cinema.

very interesting!

So this decoration was only given in a number of 77 awards to british soldiers?

Or are there any other awardings as well?

To the manufacturing - on the last navy bar it seems as if the arms of the st-anne-decoration are not enameld, as they look like painted. Is this only because of the picture or where there different manufacturers?

Christian

Hi Christian

As I understand to the British Navy, perhaps a few found there way to the British Army. The arms are enamel and of the same high quality as the other pre 1917 grades of the order. Unfortunately very little info is out there on this scarce decoration.

Sincerely

Brian

Hello Miguel, I hope this helps

The Zealous Service 1877-78 medal was established on the 15th of February 1878 by Prince Milan Obrenovic.

It was awarded for "exemplary and zealous service during the war with the goal of helping the work of the army or in general with the goal of liberation and independence" (sorry for the rough translation)

It had two classes a gold and silver one. All in all 69 gold and 376 silver were awarded. Two of the gold were further decorated with brilliants. One was given to General Kosta Protic at that time the head of the army. The other was awarded to Jovan Ristic then the minister of foreign affairs.

Ivan

Hi Ivan

Fascinating to learn that two of the Zealous Service were with brilliants. Any idea if they were worn around the neck or on the breast. Perhaps a foto of one of the gentlemen is wearing his decoration. By any chance would you have the rolls for the 1877/78 medal or where it would be located to identify the owner.

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Miguel

Thanks for informing me, your early Roumanian bravery bar is superb don't see too many of those around. Come to think of it, dont see many bulgarian bars. Any idea why that is compared to the other Balkan countries.

Sincerely

Brian

Sorry about that thought to have one large picture and instead two small ones opppppssss

I only have his decorations by 31st December 1918 as he commandes the 5th ID

Leopoldorder, Commander with KD and Swords

MVK 2nd Class with KD and Swords

Order of the Iron Crown 2nd Class with KD and Swords

Lepold 3rd Class with KD and Swords

Iron Crown 3rd Class with KD and Swords

MVK 3rd Class

Dienstzeichen f?r Offiziere 3rd Class

1908 Cross

1898 Medal

Mobilisierungskreuz

haynau

Thanks Haynau for that , more info then what I had before. Luckily this one could be Identified. To find the Iron Crown's W/Swds & Kd are nearly impossible more so then the Leopold, perhaps in bronze gilt more likely. Any idea on number issued for the 3rd class Iron Crown & Leopold W/Swds & Kd?

Sincerely

Brian

Yes yes an absolutely wonderful site , even goes to the regimental commanders. Unfortunately von Felix is not listed, he was commanding a Field Howitzer Regiment No 6 in 1912 & 31 Field Howitzer Brigade in 1915. Glen has the commanders listed in 1914 and a great many Generals with career details.

Cross from von Felix

Dear Gentlemen

I'm hoping a member might have some detailed information on FML Adalbert von Felix commanded Vl Corps late in the war. Only have very limited info, very difficult to learn something of his service.

Sincerely

Yankee

Yes... that velcro tape is a fascinating detail, something that gives this Alhaddin's cave treasure that fantastic "touch".

Why didn't I buy an ex-Soviet oil company in 1990?

If the prospective buyer would be interested, I have 2 meters of white velcro tape in my safe: I could sell it for ? 20.000,- (a real bargain!).

Best wishes,

Enzo

Hi Enzo

That is no ordinary velcro but after close examination sure enough orginal pure white Czarist velcro which certainly justifies the quarter million price. Let us just hope that these investors stay in the Russian arena and not spread to other Empires or it will be the end to the majority of us collectors . Luckily it is only Russia having an oil based economy and not the rest of Europe....

Brian

Ah, that's the sort of piece that with 1905, 1906, and 1907 Schematismus-es, should be possible to identify who the recipient was. There can't have been more than one recipient of a 25 in 1906?

Hi Rick

At best was hoping to get a little info on the regiment itself, never occured to me in my wildest dreams that the service cross could be identified to the recipient. The recipient must have been greatly adored by his comrades to be given the decoration in gold or a sign of great respect to their commanding officer which could be likely given to.

Hello All

Any member have info on line regiment No 71 Galgotzy they can share please.

Thanks

Yankee

Hi Enzo

Congratulations in obtaining that fantastic group Really great that you were able to rescue the remainder of the group from the wrecking ball. All too often they get broken up. Thinking there easier to sell, unfortunately on high ticket items in a group there dispersed even more. Very seldom to see an Austrian group that can be identified. I have seen a copy of the book on the Franz Joseph recipients a bit like 5 telephone books stacked on top of one another, excellent source for all individuals are wearing full uniforms & decorations. Thanks for sharing.

Sincerely

Brian

77 Medals recive for Jutland battle

Right you are, strictly Navy. Found this neat bar with a little bit of search.

Hi Brian

Thank you for your kind comments. This cross was bought in Paris, many years ago from a well-known dealer of that time, and it probably came fron a French family. Strangely, the ribbon seems to be a combination of three awards which was sometimes found during the "Restauration" period (1814-1830).

If this means anything in the history of this particular award, then it was worn by a military man, since the St.Louis Order was only given to officers. Should that be the case, only 5 general officers of that period could have owned it. And if the award was made during the time when the Austrians were fighting Napoleon, it could only have been given to an emigr? officer, which narrows the possibilities even further.

The exact measurements of the cross are 45x32mm and the hollow crown is 31x31mm; the width of the ribbon is 38mm.

This forum, in addition to information from the French medals forum, has brought a lot of information about this award. I am very grateful. Hopefully, more might come up later.

Very best regards

Veteran

Hi Veteran

Fascinating you are able to get some names, great luck that the roles still exist from an early period. I agree too that ever so few of these crosses ever come up. Last one to have seen was in the Morton&Eden Part 1 2006 from the ANS collection and that also is a marked example from the early 19th century unfortunately I missed that one . Prior to that Leopold do not remember one coming up for sale. This one was 28mm, have seen them as small as 25mm & these are knight size badges. The reverse clasp ( triangle ) is neat to say the least & to have the full orginal ribbon is beyond words . When you learn the identity please let us know. Good luck..

Sincerely

Brian

The Assayer is different that the Maker of a piece.

The assayer mark is usually within the kokoshnik, and refers to the gold or silver content.

George

Hi George

If the assayer is with the gold content mark, then the "AK" on the reverse side of the arm would be only for Kiebel. Now I know exactly, thanks for that info

Sincerely

Brian

Badge of Honour of Order st. Anne for foreighners . 1911 y.

Hi Igor

Thanks for that , this never occured to me.

Any idea in what numbers they were issued or just as scarce as a Saint Anne for Non-Christians. Were they issued in both gold & siver-gilt?

Sincerely

Brian