Yankee

Hi Veteran

What a lovely old example of the order, an absolute thrill to see such one and your hollow crown is exquisite in all details

. Normally most prior 1860 are not marked and finding one by a certain jeweler is awesome.

Thanks for posting

Sincerely

Brian

Hello Gentlemen

Here is an interesting example of St.Anne

It has been suggested that it could have belonged to an officer of the order itself however I can't find anything written on this design. Any clues???

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Gentlemen

It would seem that there are two jewelers that used AK, however 40 some years apart. Any idea last year for the St.Stanislaus with wing tips touching one another. Unfortunately I don't have access to my example for a quick scan, hopefully in a few weeks I can get to it. Perhaps those flat arm examples belonged to the earlier AK marking of Antonovich Kovalskij if he made the that order & the later bulbous arms came from Kiebel.

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Enzo

What an awesome badge , never have seen an orginal before with 37 issued most likely never will again. Thanks for posting the reverse, certainly they are night & day. The workmanship is absolutely superb on par with those wonderful Imperial Russian badges, perhaps the designer was Russian.

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Ed

What a marvel to see such complete documented groups, no idea the Soviets could handout so much thought that was only reseved for the Generals. Enjoyed it

Sincerely

Brian

I remember watching the color film of the Victory Parade years ago and seeing the German banners thrown before the masoleum of Lenin. The strongest display of symbolism is of course the Liebstandarte AH Banner that is pictured in the stamp, in the film it's thrown on the pile along with all the other "common ones." The standard of Hitler's personal bodyguard at the feet of Lenin...very powerful statement, very emotional imagery.

Did not notice that , thanks for pointing that out on the stamp. I suppose the bodyguard standard in front was done on purpose that Hitler's elite had been crushed. Interesting that you can buy these flags from the museum for 35 thousand...

Sincerely

Brian

Hello,

Just look at <a href="http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/flags/de1945su.html" target="_blank">http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/flags/de1945su.html</a> for another version regarding what happen to the flags during that rainy day parade...

Hi Matteti

Thanks for that site , interesting to learn that Imperial & Nazi were all thrown together , and certainly the populace watching the throwing of the flags had not even noticed nor cared. More fascinating is that they were looted from a German Museum in Berlin, thought these battle flags were taken away from the enemy at the front. Like in the old Napoleonic days when a regiment would have their flag captured by an enemy force in close combat.

Sincerely

Yankee

A stamp that tells a story. I suppose these flags are treasures to those who collect. They were destroyed in the parade & wonder just what types they are.

Alexander Kordes, St Petersburg 1839-74.

As far as I can find in reference He made NO orders.

Albert Keibel started in his fathers businerss and didnt take over until his death in 1874.

SS orders can also be dated in the differences of apperance.

Early orders had differenc style eagles and enamel.

George

Hi George

Thanks for informing me that the only AK marks belong to Albert Keibel. As I understand Albert Keibel stoped being in business around 1900 and Eduard became the court jeweler to the Czar. Are the Keibel pieces that have a lighter red transparent enamel on the arms and are almost flat an earlier style of Albert Keibel then the ones found with a darker enamel on a more bulb type arm?

Sincerely

Brian

Hello Gentlemen

There are two jewelers with the same initial Alexander Kordess and Albert Keibel. They both produced the St.Stanislaus widely. How does one tell the difference who it was made by, since they both have the same initial that was marked on the reverse? Any info would be of great help.

Sincerely

Yankee

Gentlemen, I have to correct a previous statement. The faked bands on the Prussian Crown Orders, which I referred to in post #40, are bands to the RAO, not the Garter and they appear on both stars and crosses, especially crosses. Actually, I think that any German with a Garter would have something higher than any degree of the Crown Order.

With regard to the Duke and his Austrian uniforms, remember that Hannover ceased to exist in 1866, at which time, he was the Crown Prince; his father (King) George still being alive. The family went into exile, dividing their time between Vienna and Paris, spending most of their time in Vienna. As a matter of fact, if they traveled through Germany (by train, at that time), the window shades in their car were to be drawn. During this time he commonly wore Austrian uniforms; with what authority I do not know.

Yankee, your knight?s cross looks pretty good. I would guess, judging by the tri-fold ribbon, that it was awarded, but not necessarily produced, during the exile period.

Hi Wild Card

Thanks for your encouraging comment on the knight. Not too long ago I noticed two different type of crowns between the arms, strange not to notice this before I acquired the Earnst August. Looked up a picture of another example and that too had the same crown design. The only significance I can come up with is that both crowns represent the Kingdoms of Great Britain & Hannover.

Interesting what you had to say about the Crown Prince traveling through Germany, Emperor Franz Joseph was not fond of his Hannover relations/guests & had to put a happy face on entertaining them..Sad how Hannover was absorbed even more sad for the Duke but most of the other countries that sided with Austria just received a slap on the wrist go figure.

Sincerely

Yankee

Hi Gentlemen

Always thought this was a German made piece from 1866 but now I'm not so sure. Any thoughts are welcomed if a Busch or Rothe make. Thanks to WEBR55 showing both pictures of the Duke wearing two different mounting styles. It seems Hannover favored the trifold ribbon perhaps due to her close ties with Austria.

Hello Yankee,

Thank you for the compliment on the St. George star; I was beginning to think that it had gone unnoticed. Actually Garter bands are known to also exist on both Red Eagle and Prussian Crown Order insignia; but, again, these are extremely rare and widely faked, especially the Crown Order.

With regard to identifying unmarked (commander?s and grand cross grade) B?sch pieces, there is an answer; but it is a bit involved and I would rather not post it as it would be very useful to certain creative parties who have not caught onto it yet.

Thank you again for the compliment and best wishes,

Wild Card

Hi Wild Card

A St. George with a garter ribbon could never go unnoticed unless one too many beers . A friend of mine some time ago had shown me a Garter star w/Black Eagle band. Orginally thought this practice of adding foreign bands was only between the Prussian stars and English. Besides Hannover & Prussia did any other German Kingdoms have bands on their star? The copies of the Garter, Eagles & Crown bands are they being placed on orginal stars? If so then only an expert can tell I suppose by how the bands are fastened to the star itself. All the best.

Sincerely

Yankee

Well Gentlemen, having taken a Christmas break (lots of family things going on), I can see that I have some work to do and questions to answer here. So...

Yes, the two bars shown above are a father /son combination. Actually they had been broken up, or should I say, gone separate ways. I suspect that this separation took place in recent times; and I must admit that there was an element of luck involved in being at the right place, at the right time, to get (first) the father?s group. Sometime later, when the son?s group became available, the opportunity to reunify the two was the added incentive that made it happen.

According to Orden u. Ehrenzeichen des K?nigreiches Hannover by Andreas Thies and Wilhelm Hapke there were 213 first class knight awards to the Ernst August Order between the years 1866 and 1878. Since the kingdom ceased to exist in 1866 I think that it is safe to say that the majority of awards were made in exile and were not made by B?sch but most likely by Rothe und Neffe. Note that the Ernst August Order insignia on both bars are second class; which leads me to another matter.

Notice also that the Order of the Guelph insignia are those of the fourth class, which is usually incorrectly referred to as knight second class. I believe that awards of this order did not occur after 1866 and yet we see one on the son?s (who was born in 1888) bar. This insignia seems to have a special significance to the Hannoverian Royal Family going back to the first Ernst August because virtually any picture of them shows this cross; but why the fourth, and lowest, class? My guess, and I emphasize guess, is that it is because this grade was created by Ernst August in 1841; and, as such, was separate from the rest of the order which was so very British, which he despised, but I am going...

Let?s get to some pictures. First the bar on the Danish Christian IX silver medal.

Hi Wild Card

Many thanks for pointing out the fact that the Earnst August knight 1st class was awarded in exile. Since no solid crown examples have been recorded then it would be safe to say that they exist only in hollow crowns. I suspect it would be very very difficult to tell the Busch & Rothe apart since the jeweler quality at that time was excellent for both firms. The early Rothe badges were not marked as I assume the Busch made examples also were not. I think it was just Rothe making early material, not sure when the nephew joined the firm. When I get to my own computer I'll send out a scan of a knight 1 class.

What a fantastic St.george star w/Garter . Never seen one before only viewed the Black Eagle with Garter.

Sincerely

Yankee

I have noticed that the Franz Joseph medal is often with a "locket" on the reverse.

Would those of you that have this item care to share what is included in the "locket"... pics .... snips of hair????

Rod

Hi Rod

In regards to the Franz Joseph Order, have always seen a locket on the reverse of the badges. Never had one with something inside if so that would be a surprise. Also would like to know what was the orginal purpose of the locket..

Sincerely

Brian

Thats one of the copy that saschaw show in a german forum.

Regards

Alex

Hi Alex

Many thanks for informing me, best to pass on this piece being offered to me. I seldom encounter this order and regret to hear that this particular order is being copied enormously.

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Wild Card

I just realized both Dukes were given the Danish Royal Wedding Decoration , interesting that the little Prince at the time had accompanynied his father suppose back then it was all about protocol. It seems they are both gold ( Royalty ) any idea how Christian lX was related to the Dukes?

Sincerely

Yankee

Hello Gentlemen

Since we are on the topic. I am curious on this example. The green leaves are a different shade not sure if that is a good sign or bad, any comments are most welcome. Thank you.

Hi Yankee,

Thank you for the compliment on the Ernst August bar. With regard to the hollow crowns, I have heard several theories; but can not offer anything definitive. Don?t forget, Ernst August was not born until 1887; twenty-one years after the end of the kingdom, so... Certainly the hollow variety is much rarer; but, at the same time believe that the crowns on the first class knight badges are always hollow.

Per your request, here is the full bar.

Hi Wild Card

What an absolute pleasant surprise, thought to see a mirage. Really great you were able to have a father & son group united and not to be broken up which seems to be the norm these days. To think of it never have seen a gold knight with solid crowns, perhaps they were never awarded in exile. Many thanks for your kindness in showing these absolute Royal Historical gems

Sincerely

Yankee

Gentlemen,

With regard to the questions raised in posts #6 and #13 about the ribbons of the Ernst August Order and the Hannoverian Jubilee medal, I would like to offer the following.

The Ernst August Order ribbon is quite correct. Below is the same decoration on the same ribbon as seen on the medal bar of Ernst August, Duke of Brunswick (Royal Family of Hannover).

Hi Wild Card

What an absolutely fantastic row of orders, one seldom finds an Ernst August with hollow crowns even more so on a bar. Any chance to see the rest of the bar? As I understand these crowns were only issued before the Duchy was absorbed into Prussia.

Sincerely

Yankee

Good news-bad news.

There is a COMPLETE roll of the Coronation medals extant in the Bulgarian archives. I have been chatting with a Bulgarian collector/ dealer on-line and the folio is all there. Many Germans got these as the newly crowned czar was, after all, a native German and brought a significant enterouge to his his court.

However, Ii have no idea how to get him-or anyone else in Bulgaria for that matter, to xerox it.

Theodor??

Hi Ulsterman

Certainly more on the side of good news. Just to know that the rolls are safely stored away is a stroke of good fortune. Any possibility that you can get the address from your source. Any idea who to contact in finding out where the rolls would be for the Serbia Zealous Service 1877-78 War, as I understand 376 were issued, simply cross -reference & have a name. Thanks.

Sincerely

Yankee

I see... so this order is not that untouchable.

I also find the design very nice, but not being my main interest I will probably wait until a nice opportunity pops up.

yes yes the order can be easily had & the prices reflect that. I suspect there are more fakes then orginals out there. Remember Anhalt was very small & to see so many badges on the market makes many collectors hesitant. For myself I'd purchase one only in a group or a documented one & preferably cased.

Sincerely

Brian

Thanks, Yankee. Having a simple metal design, I could imagine that this order is very appealing to fakers. And this is why I decided to ask about the range of fair prices for these badges...

Hi Carol I

Yes a simple design but beautifully crafted. For prices they range from 200 euros for a knight ll class & up. Commander grade perhaps 500 euro & up. Note there are gold examples & they are rare.

Sincerely

Yankee

Be very careful Carol I on this order, fakes have been coming out of Europe since the 1950's. I'm not even sure if there is a way to tell an orginal from a good quality copy, if there is I'd like to know. The only was to be sure to have an orginal Albert the Bear is locating one on a bar that looks not to have been tampered with. Good luck

Sincerely

Yankee