Yankee

You guys are good, thought this would be a toughie. It is a case for the Griffin Knight by Rose. Didn't know the cases were identical to the Wendish Crown since it was a much more rare award. I assume it would be safe to say the order is more rare then the case in both orders from Mecklenburg. What did one have to do in order to receive a crown above the cross? As I understand from the O&E catalog they were made in silver, bronze-gilt and white metal-gilt. Would the bronze-gilt issued pieces be considered WWl issue or before. Also lately I have seen a number of Wendish Crown breast badges in silver & wondering if they were only issued for WWl or just later copies for the collector. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely

Yankee

Dear Gentlemen

Who could dwell here

Our dollar has risen about 45% against the USD in the last couple of years, so I'm buying alot more from the States than usual. In fact, our currency is now higher for the first time since the 1970's. Might be time for the US government to begin exercising some fiscal responsibility, before the whole house of cards comes down.

If the WAR in Iraq continues 4 more years very good possibility to see the Euro at 2 dollars. Short the dollar you just might make a fortune........... & then you can buy lots of medals at any price.

Lovely, and quite rare. Never ever ever ever ever attempt enamel repair. Will destroy history and manufacture totally worthless junk.

Hi Ed & Paul R

Understand what you guys mean, saw not too long ago on another site how a fine order was desroyed in attempting to clean.

Sincerely

Brian

It appears that almost all Order from the Faustin I period are badly damaged. The Legion d' Honneur is based very much on the French one and the suspension is very similar.

I would leave well alone, it is a scarce award and certainly rarer than the Order of Faustin, and given that it is already quite beadly damaged I think attempted restoration could bee quite dangerous.

Paul

Hi paul

I remember the old Faustin lst examples you had in the last ANS auction. Was not aware that the Legion of Honour was more scarce, would have thought opposite since the Faustin l ranks as a higher order as I recall. I know you to be expert in this field, thanks for that. Are there any records in the numbers issued? I have seen another example of an even older Haitian piece that was offered by Liverpool in their 98 catalog & that too had a silver boot or strap in the exact same location. It is safe to say that the strap/ boot were never orginally part of the order but only used as a repair. Perhaps both pieces repaired by the same local jeweler. Since I have not seen another piece it is very hard to compare.

Sincerely

Brian

Hello Gentlemen

Here pictured is the Haitian Legion of Honour founded by Emperor Faustin 1850-59.

Are there any experts on restoration, that would know if the silver strap was removed, would it open a pandoras box? Does anybody have a print of one to show how the upper arm joins the crown? Thanks

Sincerely

Yankee

Hello Jerome:

These photographs are very interesting! I would like to start off by saying that I do not have a background in uniforms. These uniforms do look similar to period German uniforms, but I find nothing to specifically identify them as such.

I am struck by the fact that these fellows look Spanish, Mexican, or South American, and not German. I have never seen a Bavarian Officer of this period sporting an earring!

Do you have any other clues to their origin? Perhaps these were some of Maximillian's Officers?

Best regards,

"SPM"

Hi SPM

These Gentlemen certainly due look South American, maybe the Bavarians employed soldiers of fortune in their 1866 conflict. I think you hit the nail on the head and their part of Maximillian's officer corp dressed in European style uniform.

They are fascinating fotos. Any chance could be Austrian uniforms?

Sincerely

Yankee

Hello Gentlemen

Enjoyed viewing all your Czarist shoulder boards , had no idea it is such a vast field with each board displaying a different unit & surface style. If anybody should find themselves visiting the Winter Palace ( across from the Hermitage ) in St. Petersburg Russia, I suggest a visit to the Guards Museum truely a marvel ( located by the columns & parade ground) where many of the uniforms can be seen including some that belong to the Czars. I remember the shoulder boards being ornate & the uniforms were in pristine condition.

Sincerely

Yankee

Yes indeed, that could well be the case! Sorry, no pun intended.

Thats a good one, very funny

Hi Yankee,

That is one extremely rare case.

Congratulations!

Wild Card

Thanks Wild Card, it would be amusing if the case turns out to be more desirable then the order itself.

And I thought this would have been one tough cookie to crack.

Hi SPM

You are correct it is the case for the Ernst August knight. Actually it is for the exile type made by Rothe 1866-78 solid crowns. Inside is built for the trifold ribbon. It could be for either class ( no distinction on outer lid )however what sleeps inside is a knight ll class.

Hi Andreas

You aced it. How'd you do that.....

Sincerely

Brian

Who could possibly live inside.

But this is a non-wearable table "medal", right?? Any images of the real ones?

Hi Ed

Unfortunately I do not have an example of the ribbon worn medal, perhaps another member does & kind enough to post it. The few books I have only show the table medal

Sincerely

Yankee

Rudolf Marshall of Vienna {signature at 8 o'clock position obverse} designed this medal to Tsar Ferdinand's specifications in late 1911---early 1912 for award on 21 December 1912. The obverse inscription translates as "Ferdinand I--Tsar of Bulgaria". The reverse has the Bulgar state arms in the center surrounded by a text around the circumfrence that roughly translates as "commemorating our anniversary of 25 years as ruler 1887-1912.

The medal was struck in both 90 mm and 34 diameter sizes. {The illustrated example appears to be a 90 mm table medal.) Both size medals were struck in Vienna by likely Rothe or possibly Telge sub-contractors. The larger table medal has no suspension; approximately 350 were struck in gilt bronze, 350 in silvered bronze and 350 bronze examples for a total of about 1000 pieces. Table medals went to Members of Parliment {Sobranje}, local authorities, leading citizens and some foreigners.

The smaller wearable medal with a pierced ball/cylinder and ring suspender exists in gilded bronze, originally in about 100 examples. It hangs from a triangular white ribbon with green edge stripes similar to the Saxon Merit Order. Ferdinand personally bestowed these on members of his royal suite, government and civil and military officers. Some foreigners received this medal.

The medals celebrate Ferdinand's 25th jubilee as Bulgar ruler but he continued to award them after 1912, even in exile {in Coburg} as a mark of personal favor. Silver gilt medals exist but they appear to be castings--these pieces likely were made in the 1920s-30s in Coburg as several contemporary medal bars contain them. The number of these varients made is unknown, as is the potential date range. It is possible that some were awarded as late as 1940-43.

It is also entirely possible, given his personal tastes and finances, that Ferdinand commissioned 14 or 18 karat gold examples of both the table and wearable medals.

Sources--D. Acovic "Bulgarian Orders, Decorations, and Medals" Beograd, 1987, Denkov "Order and Medals of Bulgaria" Sofia, 1995, P. Petrov, "Order and Medals of Bulgaria" Sofia, 1998, Pavlov "Bulgarian Orders and Medals" Sofia, 2002

NOTE: Petrov confuses table medals with wearable medals in arriving at the number of pieces struck. Acovic, Denkov and Pavlov present correct information based on archival documentation.

Hi 922F

Wowww excellent information, one of the lesser known medals. Only a 100 awarded that explains why they are so difficult to come across. Interesting to note they were handed out in gilded bronze. I suppose with the Balkan wars raging at that time he decided to be economical. This must be the rarest of the Ferdinand l medals under his reign. Thanks

Sincerely

Yankee

Hello Gentlemen

Here is the all elusive medal for the silver jubilee of Tsar Ferdinand I. Does any member know how many were issued in silver & bronze? Were any ever struck in gold for the aristocracy?

Thanks

Yankee

Hello Gentlemen

Knight of the St.Stephen ( not mine ) One of the most beautifully designed. Can any member give a time frame to this one?

I thought ling before posting this, however, here goes, I have also watched this thread with great interest. I was after all, the first to congratulate Kevin on a nice acquisition. As it transpires from later postings, other members cast doubt on the authenticity of the piece in question, without, as Kevin originally pointed out, any corroborative evidence, just a general blanket statement. My knowledge of this award is limited and the two examples I have, have been verified as authentic. I together with many other members are more than happy to learn from others about items in their collection, with informative comments and information which can be proven, after all most of us have at some stage bought a ?lemon?. That being said, tempers have been raised in a number of postings which as Rick Research, Chris Boonzaier and Stogieman have pointed out, detract from the general ethos of this particular forum, and that is, that it is conducted in a friendly and gentlemanly way, with exchange of information which in the end benefits all. The following comments I illustrate by example as being unhelpful

"I am able to understand your English as well as your good old aunt was able to understand it!

And I would bet that you will get not a single pic of any Bavarian medal here in this forum. Wait til next year and buy "the Bible" then you'll find out all answers to your quests for sure. Btw the author will be in Reichertshofen. Give him fun for some hours and show him your 1st class MVK, even better, let him make a scan of the medal and it will appear in the book (chapter "poor fakes").

Therewith this argument is ended now for my part.

Best greetings from clawfinger!!!

saschaw: Ist halt schwer bei soviel Ignaranz."

If the intention is to persuade people to buy the (Your) book then I would suggest that there are better ways to advertise it

regards

Alex K

Hi Alex

Also had the bad luck to get a lemon and it was a sickening feeling at that. However at the same token I was grateful when other collectors informed me that it was not what it should be. I guess you can't sugar coat words when telling someone they have a fake.

This may help: two MVO's on medal bars. Both 4th class with crown and swords in silver gilt:

Thanks very much Andreas for posting those beautiful zoomed MVO examples. Should be OK now to know the difference from a good one and a forgery.

Sincerely

Brian

Hmm, last sentence in my poting should be "I have NO problem with you MVO 4th class. =)", of course.

I'm sure someone here has a gilt 3rd class, but I fear that there will come even more faked ones as the genui8ne pieces are damn rare. I wouldn't recognize the diffenrece, but the persons who made out the others, will see it. I don't know if they'll post anymore, but I hope so ...

Ahhh your " last sentence in my posting " was for Alex K. I am sure he is pleased. Good collecting

Sincerely

Yankee

Well, this thread was mainly about the Milit?r-Verdienstkreuze (for NCOs and enlisted men), not about the Milit?r-Verdienstorden (which were for officers only). I don't think that there are faked 4th class MVOs, but the same thing is done as with the merit crosses: the are being upgraded to 3rd classes by being gilt. No problem either, as there are some specific thing and any "faked" 3rd class is easy to recognize - as easy as the "upgraded" merit crosses are ...

I have NO problem with you MVK 4th class. =)

Saschaw thanks for making us aware, really disgusting somebody is taking 4th class examples and turning them into 3rd class, destroying the badge in the process. Can any member post an orginal gilded 3rd class piece so the newer collectors don't get burned.

Dear Gentlemen

I was amazed to learn that there are copies being made of the MVK. Does this include those beautiful MVO's too? If there are as a novice Bavarian collector should I be concerned on the quality?

Hi Franken75

I hope you reconsider about not wanting to participate in any more posts. As a member I am very happy to learn from other members, never doubting their knowledge and insight. I'm sure there are others who feel the way I do. I hope you will continue to share your expertise.

Sincerely

Yankee

my apologies, it is the third I can't identify. Caught my mistake, in the center is the William

Hello Gentlemen

Today received a much awaited foto of Oberst Schuch from the Bavarian State Archives. Now I can rest and put a most aristocratic face on this group. I'd like to thank Dave Danner & Glenn J for their kind help . A special word of thanks to David M for walking me through the process of obtaining a foto without his help my quest would merely be a dream . If you will notice on the foto Oberst Schuch has three orders and the Iron Cross 2nd class. Now I am confused as I understand he only recived two orders the MVO Knight 1st class & William Knight. This I can identify on his tunic. Can the one in the center be a long service decoration ( seems to have crown ) or what can it be?

Sincerely

Yankee

Hi Christophe

I suspect a lot of those items you have displayed for us to view are simply to fool collectors and it works. There are some very high quality copies not just in the higher grades but the lower classes as well all in GOLD which are not pictured. The ones pictured do not seem to be a threat to advanced collectors but for one who is just starting out can be. I must say some of those copies look good especially the lower ranking orders from the picture that is. Unfortunately with the high prices on Russian items these days it pays for the forgers to go into this line of business. Hallmarks mean nothing for they fake that too, thanks for sharing those fotos.

Sincerely

Yankee