Yankee

Hey Brian,

Are you basing this "1st half 19th century painting of the Saint on a later (new) cross " for a Russian made piece ? I didn't know if the same rules would apply for a foriegn made one.

Cheers

Mark

That is a good question actually, it could be for Foreign as well as Russian. Usually St. Anne's that are foreign made will have a well detailed picture of the Saint and are early for so many were given out for the Allies of the Napoleonic wars. Explains why you see so many early privately made foreign ones, they are rare too. The later centers are not as detailed but are beautifully colored in landscapes.

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Mark

Oppps I apologize post 14 in response is to be addressed to you not mike

The Saint Anne you found has a 1st half 19th century painting of the Saint on a later (new) cross in shiny gold. I would shy away from it, the turn of the century ones do turn up often enough. I suspect a 1st half 3rd class that is proper would fetch 5000 these days. A late 19th century 1500-3000, auctions are a good source for them. Every now and then the orginal ribbon rings are included ( a thick long gold wire & they can be marked as well )

Sincerely

Brian

Hello All,

Ok... this is a topic very distant than my area of collecting ... but I need to aquire one of these to complete a Danish general's uniform display.

Is this badge original or not ?

Seller states that it is gold.... with no maker mark... and pre-1918.

35mm in size.

Also.... what is the going rate for one of these ?

Cheers

Mark

Avoid that one

Hello All,

Ok... this is a topic very distant than my area of collecting ... but I need to aquire one of these to complete a Danish general's uniform display.

Is this badge original or not ?

Seller states that it is gold.... with no maker mark... and pre-1918.

35mm in size.

Also.... what is the going rate for one of these ?

Cheers

Mark

Avoid that one

Brian

Hey George,

Yes.. I watched that one on ebay..... I figured the price was based on the garnet arms (special version ??)...

I've asked for better pics of the one I've posted.. and I'll post them if they send them.

Were these foreign made (who made them) and if so, how can I tell ?

I'm also assuming that the foreign made ones cost less than the official Russian made versions.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mike

The one you saw on ebay is dark red enamel most likely made in the 1860's or 1870's it was the fashion back then perfectly a good piece and highly sought after however it would not work for you, the piece is way to early for your needs. You can also find them in black enamel as well & they should be hallmarked too. Non- Russian made ones are often encountered and usually have no markings. The one pictured is Russian made. Unfortunately there are copies now big time and you need to closely examine even the hallmarks can be forged.

Sincerely

Brian

Hey guys,

A few bright and shineys arrived today....... thought I would post a few pics....

Hi Mark

Absolutely fantastic displays Is the uniform on the left a German State General? One always notices all those Third Reich uniforms but seldom one encounters WWl & prior officer corps. A real marvel to see the hats and I noticed you have medal bars on the other uniforms excellent research and dedication. Great job

Sincerely

Brian

Hey Brian,

The St Anne is on 4th place.... the dark ribbon and you can barly make out the details.

He was awarded the St. Anne in 1908.

Cheers

Mark

Any chance to zoom the foto with bar only

Nope.... shouldn't be as the St. Vladimir is ranked above the St. Anne.. so it would have come first.

I also think that the Vladimir is a combat award (though I'm not positive about this).

Argggggg.......

Cheers

Mark

The St Vladimir is higher ranking & would come before the St.Anne. But I don't see a St.Ann on the bar. He certainly would have recived the St.Vladimir after being awarded the St.Anne. When was the St.Anne awarded? The picture is from 1928 as I understand and he a General which certainly could entitle him to the St.Vladimir. The St.Vladimir is a civil award and can be awarded for bravery as well. In 1855 swords were placed to clearly indicate civil or military.

Sincerely

Brian

It can't be Saint Anne, for the last badge on the bar lacks the gold filigree decoration between the arms. A very strong possibility would be a St.Vladimir by that foto. Good luck Mark

Hey Guys,

Just as a follow-up

I spoke to Beyrei? (well.. e-mail).. very very nice guy !!

He located my Danish officer in his award list and it was awarded in May 1912.... WITHOUT swords..... He stated that there was only ONE awarded with swords prior to 1914 and it was for Colonial Service.

He also stated that this badge was fine... and that he had only seen copies of the ones with swords... not the ones without.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark

Did you find out how many were issued without swords?

Hey Mike,

I'm willing to take items with enamel damage as long as the price reflects the condition. Can you send me a PM with the dealer who has it ?

What is the going rate for these and the Commanders badges ?? I know you mentioned 2000-2500 for a set.... but I'm only finding singles.... and the cross I posted had a price of almost $1800 USD.......Seems the Commanders that I'm finding run between $850 and $1100 USD... all posted from dealers so I'm sure that there is a significant profit.

Also... the silver cross cleaned up very nicley.. looks much better now than when I first got it....... It's amazing what a belt sander with 100 grit sand paper and a buffing wheel can do

Cheers

Mark

Good one. Medal cleaning kit w/ belt sander got one too last Christmas There are people who due clean their medals and destroy them in the process, saw a Saxon badge in the German State forum totally unrecognizable

Or he's a Bulgarian who got lost (ran away from home?) and fought with the Germans for a bit, until he came to his senses?

And leave all that good German beer behind not a chance.

Enjoy

Which book do you have on Danish orders, Brian?

/Mike

What a surprise to see a Christian Vll with the variant crown. A dream to see such a great piece. Made my day Only seen one before in a foto.

Book was by Rolf Christensen

Novice question: Why are we thinking and talking of this as a "German" bar? It looks pretty Romanian to me. Not all medals are "German", after all?

Hi Ed

Good question. Was really not sure where to place the bar, seeing the German medals were the earliest that were received, assumed he was a German

Of the Christian VIII new type, the few I have seen on the market cost $3500-$5000 for a Knight Cross (I have never seen a Commander badge).

The old type... hmm... hard to say...

I own one of the two known pieces (there could be more of course), so do the math

/Mike

Great find Can you post yours too, not every day we can see an early treasure.

Hello Carol l & Orden Master

Identification of this bar has remained a mystery for a very long time, any light you can shed in helping to identify the group would be a marvel

Yes, the change of jeweler occured during the reign of Christian VIII (1839-1848), so both types exist with his cypher.

/Mike

When a knight of Christian Vlll does come to the market what would one pay in either type of crown design? I've only seen Frederik Vll and later for sale these days. Thanks

Gents,

Please don't take 1920 as a precise date. Some had copied what they saw foreign officers wearing etc. It's just that around 1910-20 it starts to be the norm to use medal bars.

On Mark's picture:

Around the neck:

Dannebrog, Grand Commander

On chest:

Dannebrog, Silver Merit Cross

Denmark, Commemorative medal for 2nd Danish-Prussian war 1864

Greece, Order of the Redeemer, Knight

Unknown, maybe Russian?

Is this Christian IX or Frederik VIII? (they both wore these kind of orders)

He is wearing a foreign Grand Cross sash and Star (maybe in connection with a state visit?)

/Mike

Hay fellows

Found a picture exactly like the one posted by Mark of King Christian lX wearing his decorations in my only book on Denmark. Clearly see the Silver Cross, campaign medal and the Redeemer good eyes mike. So what is missing is that 4th order. I think your right in being Russian and would venture to say a Saint Vladimir which would go to a ruling Monarch.

Hi Brian,

Very nice cross indeed and pretty rare

In the lifetime of the Dannebrog Knight crosses there were 3 changes.

First one occured after the death of Frederik VI in 1839 where the reverse was changed so it would contain 'F VI' on the upper cross arm and '1808' was moved to the lower cross arm.

Second one occured in the 1840s when the court jeweler changed to the present one (A. Michelsen) and the third occured - as you mention - in the beginning of the 20th century when the design was slightly changed (most visible on the 'C5' on the front). All the last 3 types are re-cyphered and reissued today.

/Mike

Hi Mike

Interesting to note in all the years that the Dannebrog has been around new design ( from 1808 ) the crown has not changed. Only once did I see an example of a very different style crown ( book )and that was for Christian Vlll which would be in the 1840's and that was the time you stated for a change in court jewelers. At one time did see a Christian Vll for sale and that crown was all together different, exactly like the ones we are use to seeing. So there must have been two jewelers competing at the same time or one was privately made.

Sincerely

Brian

Hey Mike,

Who needs the girls in mini skirts when you have a good book to keep you company

(ok... I'll owe you a BIG one for this)

Well.... at least this will let me know whether they were wartime awards or the 'Thank you for visiting our country' awards...

Well.. that might answer a question that Brian had...... that means the pic could be as late as 1912.. with the trifold ribbon in wear

Cheers

Mark

Ahhhh even better to read a good book on medals to the girls in mini skirts certainly be a first for them then one will say wow what a cool hobby mike . Where are all the women in this hobby

Brian

Hi Mike

Here is the Dannebrog from Frederik Vlll on a straight ribbon. The badge is not as concaved as the earlier ones, smaller crowns and not that ivory white in color on the arms. Were there any other changes at the turn of the 20th century for the cross?

Sincerely

Brian

Unfortunately I do not have that much information on the Romanian medals. The Romanian Loyal Service Medal in the bar appears indeed to be the second class (silver) of the first type established by King Carol I. I will try to see if I can find something on the award criteria for this medal, but I doubt that it will advance very much the search of the name of the original owner of the bar.

By chance would you have any of the medal rolls for what is on the bar. Perhaps only a handful of Germans would have received the 2nd class 1st type.

Sincerely

Yankee

Christian IX also wore his orders with the 'Danish trifold' ribbon (even on early pictures), so there was a bit of anarchy (or just no established procedure yet)...

What is also interesting to notice is that not until approx. 1920 did it become normal to wear the orders and medals mounted on a bar. Until then they were just attached as singles.

/Mike

Hi Mike

Since Mark wants to duplicate General Nyholm's decorations and bars didn't come into play into post WWl, then he can attach onto uniform as single pieces which would be correct providing the date of the uniform. If not dated, What is the rank of Mark's uniform?

Brian