Yankee

Hey Brian,

Yes.. I plan on creating a bar for the display.... I've made Brit ones before....... and I knoew someone who could make the German style.....

I'll worry about that once I can find all the correct orders/medals.....

Mike.... can you post a complete front and back pic of your bar ?

Cheers

Mark

That will be good fun for display purposes, funny if the orginal turned up. If you can't find any of the orders let me know perhaps I can help.

Sincerely

Brian

A not so simple reverse

Not necessarily. Danish bars are fairly simple - if you have the orders on the trifolded ribbon (OK, that could be a challenge for the foreign awards...) it's just a matter of attaching them to a metal thingy.

All the Danish mounted bars I have seen is mounted this way (the oldest being from the 1910s).

Here is an example:

/Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks for pointing that out, from the obverse it would seem to be a complicated procedure as in some of the German bars. The Danish style of mounting is absolutely fantastic, just adore those Danish style trifold ribbons.

Sincerely

Brian

Hey Mike,

That is great info.... and I really appreciate it........ So...... check me and see if I'm correct....

If I were to repicate his awards as of, say, 1925

Awards circa 1925

Rank, Major General

Medal bar (7 medals):

Denmark, Order of Dannebrog, Silver Merit Cross (awarded 14. Jan. 1909)

Anhalt, Albrecht der B?r (Knight 1. class)

Finland, "Skyddsk?rernas Fortjenstkors"

Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Greifen Orden (Knight 1. class)

Oldenburg, House- and Merit Order ('Offizierskreuz')

Russia, Order of St, Anne (3. class)

Sweden, Order of the Sword (Knight 1. class, awarded 1906)

Neck Orders:

Denmark, Order of Dannebrog (Commander - Christian X version)

Finland, Order of the White Rose (Commander 1. class)

France, Legion d'Honneur (Commander)

Italy, Order of the Crown (Commander 1. class)

Netherland, Oranje-Nassau Order (Commander 1. class)

Sweden, Order of Vasa (Commander, awarded 1912)

Breast Star:

Belgium, Order of the Crown (Grand Cross)

I'm not sure as to the date of the Belgium Crown, the Finnish orders or the Italian...

Whatcha think ?

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark

When you say replicate, do you mean to make another bar from scratch for the uniform or just put the individual pieces on. Locating the orders that you need will not be the problem but to duplicate the orginal bar you will need an expert for that. Certainly a challenge

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Glenn

Great information to know. Never knew that, certainly a good path to allow oneself to be recognized on merit and not just class. I was amazed to learn that Michael schuch did receive other orders & decorations shortly before his death. In November 1870 he recived his ( career details ) Bavarian MVO Knight 1st class. Would it be safe to assume that the award would have been with swords since it was issued during the war & he was directly involved in the fighting. Would the same also hold true for his Prussian Crown award to be with swords too? . Please excuse if the question seems naive, Bavarian MVO is already a military order, just don't know what further deeds are needed to be awarded with swords. Thanks

Sincerely

Brian

Thanks. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't something exotic that I had overlooked. Unfortunately I didn't win the auction, but a good one for the photo archive!

Steve with the Saint Stanislaus it would be a bit exotic & the order is fairly common to find. The Bavarian Military Merit Order knight 2nd class is more rare. Thanks for the foto always neat to see a beautiful example.

Sincerely

Yankee

Today the careerdetails arrived from Bavaria

21.09.1851

Michael Schuch geboren Regenau (Kreis Unterdonau) 02.09.1811, gestorben an den im Gefechte bei Orleans erlittenen Wunden Versailles 04.01.1871;

27.07.1829 als Gemeiner im 4. Linien-Infanterie-Regiment ?Herzog von Sachsen-Altenburg? eingegangen, 01.09.1829 Vice-Korporal, 01.03.1830 Korporal, 01.06.1831 als Unterkannonier zum 2. Artillerie-Regiment versetzt, 15.06.1831 Cadeten-Achtung (?), 01.07.1831 Oberkannonier, 01.09.1831 Vize-Korporal, 01.01.1832 Korporal, 20.03.1835Versetzung als Junker im 6. Linien-Infanterie-Regiment ?Herzog Wilhelm?, 22.03.1836 Unterlieutenant im Infanterie-Regiment Lamotte, 15.12.1836 Versetzung zum Infanterie-Regiment Theobald, 14.02.1845 Bataillons-adjutant, 07.04.1847 Oberlieutenant, 18.07.1847 Regiments-Adjutant, 23.12.1849 Hauptmann 2. Classe, im 4. Infanterie-Regiment, 31.03.1855 Hauptmann 1. Classe, 11.12.1861 Major im 13. Infanterie-Regiment ?Kaiser Franz Joseph von ?sterreich?, 02.09.1862 6. Infanterie-Regiment ?K?nig Wilhelm von Preu?en?, 25.12.1867 Oberstlieutenant 8. Infanterie-Regiment vac. Senkendorff, 24.05.1868 Versetzung zum 6. Infanterie-Regiment ?K?nig Wilhelm von Preu?en?, 01.02.1870 Oberst und Commandeur des 3. Infanterie-Regiment ?Prinz Carl?.

25.08.1865 Dienstalterzeichen f?r 24 Jahre, 27.06.1869 Dienstalterzeichen f?r 40 Jahre, 26.09.1870 II. Klasse des preussischen eisernen Kreuz, 01.11.1870 Ritterkreuz 1. Classe des bayrischen Milit?rverdienst-Ordens.

I do have some questions

1. What is Cadeten-Achtung (did I misread?)

2. Why is he Vicekorporal and Korporal in Inafantry first and does he need to go through the same rank again in Artillery?

3. What number did Regiment Lamotte have

4. Same for Regiment Theobald

5. What would the BMVO look like? Would anyone have pictures?

Thanks

David M

Hi David

Great job

Curious about his entry into the army. He started off as a private and worked his way all the way up to commander of a regiment. As I recall in the English army that would be a very difficult feat to accomplish to go from enlisted man to officer at that period in time. Was it also as difficult in the German States to raise yourself from private to officer during the mid 19th century, If so he must have been a very accomplished fellow. Thanks

Sincerely

Brian

Sad thing is... it looks 1000% better in person !!

I didn't know that about the Henry order......

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark

I just found out about that recently from a fellow collector in this club, just passing the info for others. I think yours is a pre WWl but not totally sure might ask another collector, knows considerably more then I on the subject. Maybe a colonial era example.

Sincerely

Brian

Foto taken 1902

Ask and you shall recieve....... Sold gold......

Mark absolutely fantastic, with silver blades what a contrast. I just remembered Henry the Lions did that too with their swords.

The Waldeck has a rod instead of a ribbon ring that you would normally see on a German made piece. It works makes the bar even. Perhaps a private purchase designed for this bar. The Queen's mother was a Princess from Waldeck so I imagine many Dutch were awarded this order perhps on other Dutch bars this type was issued. I think it is Dutch made, perhaps another member can tell for certain. On the reverse the arms are enamel.

That's the order of orange nassau, please will you read my post before your post?

You have thrown the order of orange nassau and the house order on the same thing....

Kind regards,

Jacky

and no.. what's wrong with it? Please teach us

Must have posted before your last post so much info that it just jumped ahead of me did not mean to skip

Has anybody noticed something odd about the Waldeck-Pyrmont 3rd class Cross of Merit

And where is his knight orange nassau??

First one on the bar right before the Wendish Crown

Just a quick remark:

the officers class are the 4th class of this order, the 3rd class is the Commander.

And also, I thought that the orders were made for a very very short lifespan in real gold, and they quickly swifted to silver gilt.

The order of Orange nassau is never abolished, it's still the most awarded civil order in the netherlands. However, the regulations were reviewed in 1994 and almost all automatism and double awarding (together with the order of the netherlands lion) had been removed.

But besides this all, very nice bar!!

Kind regards,

Jacky

Thanks for all that info Jacky, now I understand the 5th clas is the knight. A 4th class is the officer and explains why I never see one in solid gold. Appreciate it. Woow the Dutch had many orders and with the Luxemburg connection a bit complicated and Nassau too I may say

I already thought that it was "van suchtelen van de Haare"

Generaal Jonkheer Cornelis Lubertus van Suchtelen van de Haare

Born 25 september 1960

Knight in the Order of the Dutch Lion

Officer in the House Order of Oranje Nassau

Commandeur in the Order of The Oaken Crown from Luxemburg

Honour Cross third casse of Lippe

Honour Cross second classe of Swarzburg

Knight first classe in the Order of Frederik of Wurtenberg

Knight in the Order of The Griffiondor of Mecklenburg

Officer in the Order of Hendrik the Lion of Brunswick

Officers Honour Cross from Schaumburg Lippe

Knight in the Order of the Crown of Italy

Knight second classe in the Order of the Crown of Prussia

Commandeur in the Order of Leopold II from Belgium

Officer of the Legioen of Honour from France

Officer in the Order of the Lion and the Sun of Persia

Knight in the Order of Peter Frederik Lodewijk of Oldenburg

Knight in the Order of the Red Eagle of Prussia

Grandcross in the Order of the Star of Romania

Order of Merit third classe from Waldeck Pyrmont

Knight in the Order of the Wendic Crown of mecklenburg

Knight first classe in the Order of the White Falcon of Saksen Weimar Eisenach

Knight third classe in the Order of the Iron Crown of Austria

He received the above awards al before the age of 80. I think that this is a bar he used at one time. Not his first bar in a set of two. As a servant of the Royal Court he would have placed his House Order in the first bar....

The House order of Orange he received in 1908 the bar dates before then, but not before 1902 I know for certain. Was the House order of Orange officer class a breast badge or a pinback? Thanks

Did you delete it ? Or what do you mean?

-edit- found it, http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=17591

I thin Yankee hit the new Topic button instead off the add reply!

Yankee, May we now the name of this Jonkheer?

Certainly his name ( long one )Jonkheer Cornelis Lubertus van Suchtelan van de Haare. He was an Aide-de-Camp to William lll ( couple of months ), Aide-de-Camp to Queen Wilhelmina & later Aide- de-Camp to Duke Hendrik of Mecklenburg which explains all his knights badges he had received.

Sincerely

Yankee

I deleted nothing. I do not have that power in all but a few fora (where I'd not delete things anyway).

Normally, I read new posts and had not noticed the missing posts until you mentioned it. When I read them, they were there. (Sorry if that is stupidly obvious.)

A mystery to me.

However, had the images been "borrowed" without permission, I can understand the deletions, especially if there'd been complaints.

Hi Ed

Hope I didn't do something silly and cause a problem

Great bar But where is the rest of this "Dutch Medalbars found online" topic posted by me a few days ago?

Do you own this bar?

Hi Herr General

There is a second bar to this man that I do not know where it is, that would have been worn on special occasions, ceremonies and such. There are several German States & Persian order on that other bar, just hope it was not broken apart. As you can imagine it would be neat to unite both bars again or even to see a picture would be great.

Sincerely

Yankee

Is your Orange/Nassau Officer or Knight... The one on my bar is Officer (gold with rossette).....

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark

My apologies, didn't catch the rosette, certainly yours is a 3rd class. Mine is of silver except the center being of gold. Certainly your gold crown also indicates that too. I think some of the early 3rd class ones were made entirely of gold & later ones in silver gilt. Can anybody tell me when the order of Orange-Nassau was abolished. The Jonkheer received his knight in 1898.

Hello Chris,

This is a really nice bar, but to help you:

1) Knight Orange Nassau with swords, in general for merit, but then also for long service, the swords denote the military merit/long service.

2) Knight wendic Crown

3) Knight of the Griffiondor

4) ? Knight order of Merit Meckelenburg?

5) Silver medal of the marriage Hendrick von Meckelenburg

6) Can't see it too clearly, thought first a bronze medal of the same, which would be impossible, but the person on the background appears to be a queen too, can I have a picture of the whole medal?? Thanks in advance

7) Long service cross for... suprisingly.. Long service, the cross was awarded after 15 years (wartime doubled itself) with the numeral XV, every 5 years an officer could get/buy a new one and rise it every time with V -> XV, XX, XXV, XXX, XXXV, XL which is the highest I have seen.

This one appears to be XXV as the XV are quite on the right of the plaque, thus little guess XXV.

Hi Jacky

The bronze medal is the 1898 Inauguration of Queen Wilhelmina. The obverse does look like the wedding medal of 1901 however the reverse are totally different in design.

Sincerrely

Yankee

What a FANTASTIC bar

What is the long service (how many years ?)

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark

He has a 25 years long service medal, I suspect he could have a exchanged for a longer service at his own expense. Interesting to note both Generals received the same class of Orange -Nassau w/ swords.

Sincerely

Yankee

Hi Mike

Do you know if the reverse is enamel or paint over the silver gilt? Would a person who received the Elephant could he or she also hold a knight of Dannebrog at the same time? Only say this for the Elephant sash is an identical match to the color of the reverse. In any event nice design Thanks

Sincerely

Brian

Dear Gentlemen

The firm Ryesgados Mantgalleri has a knight FR VII of Dannebrog with a light blue reverse. Can anybody explain what this means? My only conclusion was the recipient was also a holder of the Elephant which has a light blue sash. To such an important person one would think the badge would be done in gold as they usually were not in silver gilt as this example is done.

Sincerely

Yankee