Yankee

It seems I opened Pandor's Box , never my intention. If I understand correctly Weiss & Co was only in the business of manufacturing 4th class MVO during the Great War & without swds gold center. Let us hope there are only a few isolated instances that MVO's have been tampered .

Hallo Gents,

just obtained this from Jacky in Holland, a nice salty piece.

A Silver cross of the Bulgarian Order of St. Alexander.

Can somebody give me some info on award criteria please,

There appears to be a stamp / mark on the silver piece under the ball ribbon ring hanger (appears as a dark round spot in the picture).

Kevin in Deva.

Nice one Kevin

An early SILVER one hallmarked

Thanks for sharing Yankee

woooops

Hello Gentlemen

Picked this one up a while back, was always curious about this one. Ferdinand issued a few merit medals with his bust at different stages of his life. My question is does anyone know when this medal was issued?

I forget to mention medal comes in several grades with & without crown. I've only seen one real gold one probably belonged to Ferdinand l or another monarch.

The one on the far right is a Ducal Saxe-Ernestine House Order (Herzoglich Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden). Given the Bulgarian monarch's background, it would likely be from the Duchy of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.

Eric is right about the middle one though. It is the Order of Saint Louis (Ordine di San Luigi) from the Duchy of Parma. The Duchy ceased to exist as an independent state on Italian unification in 1859-60, but the order continues to this day as a house award of the House of Bourbon-Parma.

.And why would a Bulgarian officer have an award of a state that ceased to exist before Bulgaria was founded? Because the wife of Prince (later Tsar) Ferdinand I was Princess Marie Louise of Bourbon-Parma, daughter of Roberto I, the last Duke of Parma. The wedding occurred in 1893, so the card probably dates from right after that

Czar Ferdinand created a wedding medal for the happy occasion which depicts couple on obverse & both crests on reverse.

Hard to imagine Weiss & Co only manufactured MVO 4th class with swords only. Surely some recipients received the order without swords during the Great War.

Hope this one is OK

Thanks

Yankee

I have no good feeling with the above posted cross, the shape looks IMHO not good. Better pictures would, as always, be better.

Here's a detail of my "Leser":

I don't understand " shape looks IMHO ", this one designed by Weiss. Perhaps each jeweler had their own style of scroll form.

I'll try to make larger

Bravo Andreas

Glade that baby has a nice home That foto puts a happy face on the bar

All the best

Yankee

For the pleasure of Rick and others, here are two mounted groups with the same Danish ribbon. Both are from past Thies auctions

Sorry about the picture quality and size...

/Mike

Hi Great Dane

Awesome bar , your man was all over the place. Who was the recipient & the history if you have available.

Thanks

Yankee

Hello Gentlemen

Picture from old collection, can anybody help identify the recipient of this bar.

Bulgarian Order St. Alexander w/swds on ring knight 1st type German make

1879 Coronation medal ( 51 awarded )

Russia Alexander lll Zeal medal on St. Stanislaus ribbon

1866 Bavaria War Cross

Prussia 1870 War Medal for Combattants

Roumanian Faithful Service Medal ( 1st type )

Serbia Zealous Sevice 1877-78 War

Turkish Order Medjidie 5th Class

Perhaps a soldier of fortune who fought in 4 foreign armies and later became a bodyguard or aide to Alexander l during State Visits to receive other medals. Any info would be fascinating to know.

Sincerely

Yankee

Dear Yankee:

I have a MVO II w/swords in silver-gilt made be Weiss & Co. The piece is marked "WC 950" on the scrollwork, and "WC 900" on the swords. In my estimation, the piece was manufactured in 1917 or 1918.

Best regards,

"SPM"

p.s.: Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that the MVO cases NEVER mention "swords" or show a depiction of swords on the case lid (as far as I know). "With crown" IS mentioned on cases for badges with a crown however.

Hi Schie

Like how the Bavarians mark everything, I can assume the other Bavarian jewelers did the same. To collect all MVO would be a lifetime task. Glade to have right case. Many thanks

Sincerely

Yankee

Based on the scans shown, I don't think this piece came with swords. The ones I have seen with swords removed, the shape of the triangle in the filagree was always quite clearly impacted by the swords. or rather by the rivet used to affix the swords and the usual "wobble" they have once installed. Bigger scans of the top arm/suspension would be better.

Next, any clear impression of swords in the lid/liner of the case? The presence does not necessarily mean they were removed from the cross.... the cross and case may be mis-matched. My call is its' fine, based on these photos. For what it's worth..

Thanks Stogieman for your thoughts, always great to hear that a order has not been tamper with. Saw a Knight 2nd class in gold ( 1866 - 1905 ) where the swds had been removed for there was a small dark square opening in the scroll work . Very sad for someone to do that ouchhhhhhhhhh. I too noticed a " wobble " MVO w/swds and I thought it was only an extreme exception that the swds were loose. I see now that it is the norm. Thanks for all the info.

Sincerely

Yankee

Dear Yankee:

You posed and interesting question regarding Weiss and Co. badges. Yes, a badge with swords was marked on the scrollwork AND on the swords. I will have to look at a piece in my collection when I am home to give you specifics.....stay tuned!

"SPM"

Hi Schie

Was most curious to know this, saw another MVO 4th class w/swds, however at the time did not think to look behind blades. The cases were all marked the same, never crossed swds pictured?

Thanks Yankee

Yankee,

I as far as I know only Leser and Hemmerle produced pre WWI MVO without swords and the mark 950 is likely WWI. Nevertheless a beautiful piece.

Bernd

Hi Bernd

Thanks for that, perhaps I'll have a bit of luck to find the other makers in the 4th class & make a family. I always find slight differences in jewelers making the same order. 3rd class forget it, don't see too many of them floating around or I need to be living in Bavaria....

Sincerely

Yankee

Oddly enough, there WEREN'T regulations for many of the German states (so much for "Ordnung!") but Prussuia's rules were extensive and stable over time.

Prussia placed the Lifesaving Medal behind all Prussian war awards and before all peacetime awards. That remained in effect basically from 1833 to 1933.

A Prussian with Prussian precedence for his ?:

But a Prussian Baron detached to Mecklenburg-Strelitz as regimental commander there and wearing his awards, even ? in Mecklenburg precedence:

Sincerely

Yankee

Problems.

Aside from the MEZ2 being behind incorrectly rather than in front of the lifesaving awards...

Second awards were made of whatever best "fit" the recipient's status-- usually either an Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen in silver on the Lifesaving Medal ribbon, or a Crown Order 4 on the Lifesaving Medal ribbon. For THIRD award-- see Oberstleutnant Veit of Ulanen Rgt 14 in 1914-- Red Eagle 3rd with Bow on Lifesaving ribbon, Crown 3 on Lifesaving ribbon, the ? and TWO Turkish lifesaving medals!

I cannot imagine ANY circumstance that would lift an enlisted-level 1904-06 Unteroffizier to a Major-level 2nd lifesaving award winner by 1918.

Something has been switched-- either an AEz for that Red Eagle, or a KO4X for that MEZ2. And I still can't imagine how anyone would have mounted them that way.

Did not know there was a protocol in the placing of orders & medals on a bar if all the medals & orders were from the same State. Is that with all the German States or only Prussia? Please excuse if the question seems a bit naive.

Thanks

Yankee

It would be very hard to tell, if done carefully, on a piece which has been so prettily cleaned like this one, so there is no patina at all to judge by. Weiss & Co pieces always have hand finishing marks on the edges anyway. But it looks like you have correct pre-war gold centers and the scrollwork looks good from what I can see in the scans.

I don't know whether a M1905 4th Class peacetime actually SHOULD be priced any more than an early World War with Xs and the same gold centers.

Hi Rick

On the reverse scrollwork there is the WC 950 mark. If MVO awarded with swds would it be double marked once on the swds and again on scrollwork? Unfortunately my scrollwork is slightly bent upwards which is odd. Thanks for your kind help.

Sincerely

Yankee