Yankee

1 hour ago, 922F said:

Back again--    Should this be a new thread???

Thank you Ilieff for the book referral!  

Your suggestion regarding ribbon color changes may make sense.  When seen in contemporary black/white photos, the ribbon appears to have a stripe at the edges but with color shift who can say what the actual colors are?  I have never seen the documents instituting this award or possible amendments though Pavlov and Petrov provide references.  One would think that original sources, as amended if applicable, would easily resolve this matter!

 

Rainy afternoon inspired bit of research in published works regarding the Princess Clementine 80th Jubilee Decoration.   It is classed as a decoration not a medal according to all 'authorities'.  

Romanoff's The orders, medals, and history of the Kingdom of Bulgaria, 1982, p. 165 describes the award.  He says presented to Household members, suggesting distinguished foreigners as well.   Romanoff does not mention 'Princess Clementine's Own' 9th Plovdiv Infantry Regiment as eligible. No specification to metal or class; ribbon blue with yellow edges.

Petrov's Bulgarian Orders and Medals, 1998, p. 138 describes the award in 3 classes and pictures a ribbon similar to that of the Star of Anjouan.  He says presented to 9th Plovdiv Infantry Regiment [Honorary Colonel--Princess Clementine] serving members; gold medals to staff/senior officers, silver medals for junior officers [up to and including captain] and bronze to NCOs and enlisted men.  No mention of Household members or distinguished foreigners.  

Denkov's Bulgarian Orders and Medals, 2001, p. 155 confuses the award with non-official Princess Clementine commemorative medals issued in 1899.  No ribbon description.

Pavlov's Bulgarian Orders and Medals, 2002, p. 257 describes the award in 3 classes and pictures a dark blue ribbon with relatively wide black edges.  He says presented to 9th Plovdiv Infantry Regiment [Honorary Colonel--Princess Clementine] serving members with gold medals to staff/senior officers, silver medals for junior officers [up to and including captain] and bronze to NCOs and enlisted men.  Inter alia, household members or distinguished foreigners may have gotten this award {in grade according to social standing.].  

Petrov's Bulgarian Orders and Medals, 2005, p. 147 reports the award in 3 classes and pictures a dark blue ribbon with relatively narrow black edges.  He says presented to 9th Plovdiv Infantry Regiment [Honorary Colonel--Princess Clementine] serving members with gold medals to staff/senior officers, silver medals for junior officers [up to and including captain] and bronze to NCOs and enlisted men.   Inter alia, household members or distinguished foreigners may have received this award.  

Sources claiming that about 150 bronze, 30 silver and 5 gold Princess Clementine 80th Jubilee Decorations were awarded include speakers at  Bulgarian  [monthly medal] Club meetings in 1980-82 and 1988 plus several dealers lists.  I defer to our Bulgarian friends regarding the number of soldiers actually eligible for the decoration as serving members of the 9th Infantry Regiment.    Would suspect that the medals were struck in whatever round number would accommodate the number of potential awardees plus a few extras.   Would further believe that persons close to Clementine, whether family, friends or servants/associates would receive these.  

Images of a couple of these awards below illustrate ribbon varieties.  Usually these appear with the "K" as obverse.  At least one of the silver ones is a copy. One with the darker blue ribbon with yellow side strips purchases as gold [bronze gilt] but may be a well preserved bronze one.

Hi Ilieff Thanks for informing me about the other type of ribbon.  Always assumed it was black with blue stripes.Sounds logical that the King would order the change of color after the death of his Mother. Thanks for putting a fake up for all to see. Will scan one before it had that Franenstein operation.

Hi E appreciate you taking the time in describing what the authors had to say about the creation of the decoration. Certainly are two different opinions out there.  Since some authors believed it was given to the 9th IR and about 150 in bronze to the NCO & lower ranks would suffice but surely a Bulgarian IR would have more than 150 NCO & enlisted men, thinking more like 600. The 30 to officers would be more in line. Just don't think one silver to every five bronze is the correct ratio. Perhaps one officer to every 15 or 20 enlisted would make sense unless it was strictly a household medal and would explain only 150 given. Thanks for the fotos. All you need now is the solid gold one. 

Thanks

B

3 hours ago, 922F said:

Hi B,  Happy to hear from you!   I know of only one copy variety or type.  As I saw them [maybe 4-5 examples], they probably would be easily discernable as copies due to 'muddy' details, casting marks around edge and typical 'pinprick' surface pitting often seen with cast copies.  However, they were better than 80% silver in metal content, maybe 925.   Most were on a Star of Anjouan type ribbon but one had a 'correct' ribbon albeit with wider black stripes than what appears on the Ferdinand bar.   Ribbons appeared to be silk.  As to sales outside of Sofia, one sold via eBay a couple of years ago & one in an FJP auction [both noted as copies] 5 or 6 years ago for $100.   At those prices, guess not meant to deceive.  Cheers, E

 

 

 

HI E

That is really great news. Certainly don't want copies floating around that can fool anybody. At post 34 is Ferdinand wearing a bar that looks very close to the first bar shown by ilieff. Perhaps it is the same bar and somebody tried to restore it.  It seems some ribbons and decorations had been added on at a later date.  Why go through the trouble of extending it and why stick a mini on it.  As the second bar looks much better put together as it should be. Thanks B

37 minutes ago, 922F said:

Some sources report that about 150 bronze, 30 silver and 5 gold Princess Clementine 80th Jubilee Decorations were awarded; believe that the actual numbers are somewhat higher.   Cast 80%+ pure silver copies, at least, exist.  First saw these in Sofia about 1997-98 so they have some patina by now.  Would suspect that some of these were gilded as well.   These copies usually sport the ‘alternate’ ribbon [Romanoff, 1991 & others] shown below--maybe fakers had surplus Order of the Star of Anjouan ribbon?     

   

 

Ilieff--What is the Schalafoff  book with images of these groups and where are copies available?

Hi 922F

Nice to hear from you. Appreciate giving me a figure on the amount awarded & as you say there could be more, left over as well too. Did I understand there are two type of copies?  Are they crude or very dangerous to even a collector. Could you tell by a scan?  It seems the odds are against me even with correct ribbon.  I too would like to get a copy of that book for the bars alone would be worth it. Maybe contains more bars. I suspect Ferdinand had dozens of bars over the years and now wonder if the others have such unique combinations such as the two shown. First to ever see a Southern Cross1st type on a mounted bar. Thanks

Sincerely

Yankee

53 minutes ago, ilieff said:

The decoration has been presented to members of the 9th infantry regiment but it's highly possible that a small number has also been presented to the Princess's personal suite and/or Her relatives abroad. Authors on Bulgarian decorations suggest that gold medals (I assume silver gilt) were presented to staff/senior officers of the regiment. Prince Ferdinand has also been enlisted as an officer of this regiment, thus being decorated too. Silver medals were given to the rest of the officers while bronze ones - to NCOs and probably enlisted men.

No known data of actual quantity of medals being awarded. I do believe that the decoration process was not a single act, so numbers might vary. Just to get a general idea, at the start of the Balkan war in 1912, the total number of men enlisted was just over 4 800. Logically, the total number of medals should be less or roughly similar to this. It's a very rare decoration nowadays. As far as I know, even the small museum dedicated to the regiment in Plovdiv do not have it on display.

Hi Ilieff

Thank you for confirming it had been awarded to members of IR 9.  Then this was the IR named after the Czar's Mother Clementine.  I have a fine book by Romanff on Bulgaria who states the medals being awarded to her Household and as you pointed out to her staff likely.  I recall the guy who sold me a fine silver medal telling me it was for the officers of the IR and never mentioned Household.  I believe the one on the bar is a solid gold example since that belonged to Ferdinand.  I remember about a decade ago there was a gold wedding medal/crown belonging to Ferdinand or member of royal family going up for Auction in the UK. Never saw another one after that....

Thanks

Yankee

On 11/19/2016 at 17:56, ilieff said:

Hi all,

I am currently trying to assemble a full list of the decorations received by HM King Ferdinand I of Bulgaria. Unfortunately, my knowledge only covers Bulgarian decorations, so the majority of the 'foreign' ones are very blurry to me.

I'd appreciate your help with identifying more orders/medals which belonged to Him and/or improving the existent info by defining the particular class received.

Regards,

ilieff

 

PS:I've spotted a similar list on Wikipedia.org but I believe it's very inaccurate.

 

 

 

Bulgaria:
- Order of SS Cyril and Methodius
- Military Order "For Bravery"
- Royal Order of St. Alexander
- Order of Civil Metir
- Order of Military Merit

 

German Empire
- Order of the Black eagle
- Order of the Red Eagle
- Imperial Military order of the Iron cross
- Pour le Merite (Military division)
- Order of Saint John (Johanniter Order)
- Saxe-Ernestine House order
- Order of the Wendish Crown
- Military Merit cross (Mecklenburg)

Austro-Hungarian Empire
- Order of the Golden Fleece
- Order of St. Stephan

 

British Empire
- Order of the Bath
- Royal Victorian Order

 

Russian Empire
- Order of St. Andrew
- Order of the White Eagle
- Order of St. Vladimir
- Order of St. Anna
- Order of St. Stanislav

 

France
- Order of the Legion of Honour

 

Ottoman Empire
- Gallipoli star (Iron Crescent)

 

Kingdom of Italy
- Order of the Holy Annunciation
- Order of St Maurice and Lazarus
- Constantine Military order of St George

 

Kingdom of Belgium
- Order of Leopold

 

Kingdom of Portugal
- Order of the Tower and Sword
- Order of Aviz

 

Kingdom of Sweden
- Order of the Seraphim

 

Kingdom of Denmark
- Order of the White Elephant

 

Empire of Brazil
- Order of the Rose

 

Other
- Military order of St John of Jerusalem (Maltese order)

- Order of Pope Pius IX

 

 

 

An image scanned from Schalafoff's book:

King's early bar 

And a second scan from that very same album:

Second (later) bar which belonged to the King.

Anybody have idea when Southern Cross ( 3rd from last ) was awarded?   Very unusual to see an example with short wide arms & a rather small crown. Have other members seen such design before or possibly one of a kind. On the 2nd bar in last position is the Princess Clementine medal in gold. Are there any numbers in gold silver and bronze awarded. Was it awarded to staff of her household or to a serving regiment named after her?

Thank you

Ever wonder who engraved those wonderfully inscribed Crimea's to the British. 

Thanks for the speedy reply and sharing the fotos.  To see a Saint George, Red Eagle & Saint Vladimir w/swds from the Russo/Turkis War is awesome.

The bar in post 22 is incredible.  Never seen a Balkan bar like that with a Saint George in the lead!!!  Any idea what the eighth order is from left to right?

Sorry not getting back to you sooner in complementing you in your amazing bullet find, just never saw one turned into a pendant , lost electric from the hurricane and the system never loged me out automatically.  Thank you for showing me those fotos of the 1885 Bravery Order issue.  It looks fairly similar to the 1879 example that I have pictured in post 1.  However post 1 has a pineapple like design over the three shaped mounds. As I recall it is an Austrian make but no hallmark. You have a very fine example of the Pour La Vertu Militaire.  Never seen one in such fantastic condition with a portrait miniature of the recipient. Who is the Gentleman in the painting?

No worries.  You have a good eye.  I believe yours and mine are from the same jeweler.  Have you any idea who manufactured them?

There is a lozenge stamped above the cross.  It might be a Chobillon issue.

I don't know of an Guilloche badge w/swds.  If possible can you show it.

Hi Igor

Apologize for not zooming sooner.

Given by Tsar Ferdinand to a Russian Officer on a state visit for the 25th year anniversary on the liberation of Bulgaria. It came in this case but I don't think it is right. Any idea the period of case?

Hello

An early example of a Knight or perhaps Commander.  Anybody know the amount awarded in gold?

Thanks in advance.

Hello

Can anybody say what order or decoration is on the far right side (4th place) of that early bar that is on the British Naval Officer's uniform? Thanks in advance

That would be Mecklenburg -Schwerin.  Duke Henry married Queen Wilhelmina which is why you see lots of Dutch orders and medals worn by Mecklenburg citizens and to a lesser extent Waldeck-Pyrmont.

Hi Igor

I believe so but not 100% certain.  They were struck in Centinje.  Just how many were issued and other firms involved have not any clue.

Sincerely

Brian

Hi Igor

Post 13 has an identical hallmark to yours.  The hallmark is for the letter C for Cetinje the old capital of Montenegro.  They were manufactured for the war of 1877 from Italian dies with superb details.  Hard to find

It was that perfect example from the Turin auction my thoughts were on.  Was surprised the altered ones went for a good price too.  Lucky to have acquired one of the inscribed pieces that looks correct for the period.  There is a 50 year one inscribed to an Arch Duke floating around in the States-now I just need the luck........

Thanks for that Paul. Good to know somethings are still sacred.

Luckily the badges are easier to duplicate than the enamel orders for the most part.....

You Gentlemen know if those early imposing St.Stanislaus Russian made badges from the 2nd quarter 19th century, having those fully extended wings & the two digit number for year are being faked in the 2nd and 3rd class?  Thanks in advance.

I'd agree that your dear friend is most happy that his collection lives on through other collectors where they will be appreciated and cherished ------ not in some musty museum vault buried away.

Sincerely

Brian

Amazing stuff but some very scary copies.

http://www.astebolaffi.it/coins/

A large amount of material on A-H awards from old collection is online at Aste Bolaffi a firm in Northern Italy.