Veljko

Hello paja, everyone,

just now on serbian auction is published another one, here is the link 

https://www.limundo.com/kupovina/Kolekcionarstvo/Ordenje-i-plakete/YU-SFRJ-i-Srbija/Belogardejska-oznaka-RR/70323361

Seller of course states that is original, but as i checked on several russian forums obviousely this is newly made copy, known as Belgrade copy. I think that this copy is coming from the same kitchen where serbian and kingdom of yugoslavia cockades are made

Neither montenegrin regulations. But in this case maybe parallel should be made to miniatures, they were not officially regulated but they were used. But in this case i dont have any idea or info still.

Hi Paja , yes that was on our serbian militaria forum, actually Stojan posted it and we discussed, he acquired emblem of Danilo Ist and Karageorge star from one source , bought from collectioner, very reputable one and emblem of White eagle with swords was acquired as new one - new production. Our Danilo stars are produced on the same way, also one Montenegrin collectioner has the same Danilo emblem. But all of us we dont know the source where they came from, period of production etc. 

So i guessed maybe someone here on gmic could help us,

best

Dear colleagues,

i recently acquired this emblem of the star of the order of Danilo I of Montenegro. I don’t have any info on such type of emblems that were produced for Montenegro. In Europe such emblems of orders were produced untill beginning of 19th century, not later. Order of Danilo was established in second part of the 19th century. Thx for info!

On 15.3.2018. at 19:19, paja said:

Most interesting, thanks for sharing! 
I wasn't sure about the uniform because of the collar. It seemed to me like it could be generals' but that would be a strange combination with mundir with two rows of buttons and decorations from the 1880s.

Here is photo all the others have uniforms from 1880’s

On 15.3.2018. at 20:18, paja said:

One more very interesting Obrenović era medal bar with Montenegrin decorations.

 

1) Miloš IV
2) Takovo with Swords IV
3) Legion of Honor V (France)
4) Franz Joseph V (Austria-Hungary)
5) St. Alexander V (Bulgaria)
6) Golden Bravery Medal
7) Silver Bravery Medal (Montenegro)
8) St. Andrew's Assembly Medal
9) Military Virtues Medal
10) Medal for Zealous Service in War
11) Royal Guards Commemorative Medal
12) Commemorative Medal of the 1876-78 Wars
13) Commemorative Medal of the 1875-78 War (Montenegro)
14)  Commemorative Medal of the 1885 War

Great one, thx for posting it, this combination of Serbian Obrenovic era decorations  with montenegrin decorations is the most beautifull thing! 

5 hours ago, paja said:

I was in the middle of writing my previous reply when you posted this. I'm not sure about the ribbon, Silver Bravery Medal was just a guess.

Amazing medal bar! Many thanks for posting it!
Do you know who's on the photo and when it was made? The uniform is a bit of a puzzle to me, it that a general? 
I'm not sure based on the photo, but it would be very interesting if those are truly two Golden Bravery Medals, I never saw a double recipient before! Any idea about decorations 5, 6 & 7? Perhaps #6 Serbian Silver Bravery Medal and #7 Montenegrin Silver Bravery Medal.

Officer on the photo is captain Mihajlo Radulovic. He started as volounteer in Hercegovina upraisal 1874-75. When Serbia entered into war he joined General Chernayeff troops. In Djunis battle he command with flying battalion (командант летећег батаљона), he act very bravely in battle and fiercly and heroically attacked Turks. For his heroism in wars1874-1878 with Turks, he received many Serbian and Montenegrin medals, especially ones for heroism.

I dont see well medals on the bar but i will try : 

Position 5 dont have idea

on position 6 is Montenegrin Obilic,

position 7 montenegrin silver heroism 

position 8 St Andrew assembly

position 9 military virtues

position 10 very nice and unusual- montenegrin commemorative medal 1875-78

position 11 serbian commemorative medal 1876-78

position 12 commemorative medal  serbian bulgarian war 85-8

3 hours ago, Dragomir said:

General Franasović was awarded Milosh the Great 2nd Class in 1899.

Regards,

 Dragomir

Thx Dragomir!

Pls look at this photo, very interesting and similar bar from the same period. Pls take closer look on postions 2,3,4.  It looks me like on postion 2 is takovo cross V, and than most interesting thing is coming, two medals which are the same, I would say on positions 3 and 4 are two golden bravery medals 1877!!! I never saw smthg like this. Very similar bar  also with serbian and montenegrin medals.

10 minutes ago, paja said:

It's hard to say based on these photos, but I think the medal in question is most probably the same one he wore on the 3rd place of his shorter bar. And the first photo of him posted in this topic was definitely made in 1896.

Well on the first photo the medal is obviousely rounded and i also agree that its the same medal. That means that this one is not St Andrew's assembley. Than it must be silver bravery medal, since the diameter of the medal is smaller. 

Cheers

29 minutes ago, Veljko said:

You are right Paja, its most logical arround 1897. I mentioned St Andrew's medal because the medal on the photo  looks me octagonal, not rounded. For silver bravery medal should be smaller, and regarding size it could be, obviosely its smaller than commemorative medal of Serbian Turkish wars 76-78. But still it looks me octagonal when i  larger the photo. In case that it is medal of St Andrew's assembly than the year of the photo was made could be only 1898

One more thing Paja, just now came to my mind. If its silver bravery medal than the ribbon has to be in the serbian flag colours, red, blue, white. The ribon of the medal no.7 doesnt looks like that. It looks me lighter , and since this is black and white photo most probably is light blue whith one thin stripe ie could be thin red stripe. If this is the case than it is St Andrew's assembly. what do you think about ribbon?

20 hours ago, paja said:

You're welcome. If the photo was made between 1895 and 1897 when he was back in the military then it should be St. Andrew's Assembly Medal because it was instituted later. He was awarded with the Miloš on 11. April 1899. 
The medal in question seems to be round rather than octagonal and its diameter is obviously smaller than the Commemorative Medal of the 1876-78 Wars. Perhaps Silver Bravery Medal?
 

You are right Paja, its most logical arround 1897. I mentioned St Andrew's medal because the medal on the photo  looks me octagonal, not rounded. For silver bravery medal should be smaller, and regarding size it could be, obviosely its smaller than commemorative medal of Serbian Turkish wars 76-78. But still it looks me octagonal when i  larger the photo. In case that it is medal of St Andrew's assembly than the year of the photo was made could be only 1898

Hi Igor,

But however here is version with two montenegrin bravery medals. This is also absolutely correct and possible option for this bar, Serbian silver bravery from serbian turkish and Serbian Bulgarian war and Montenegrin medal for courage 1862 (silver other you mentioned) have the same ribbon red-blue-white. But also i talked to some of our fellow collectors and thaey have the opinion that montenegrin medal for courage 1862 is going with red-white montenegrin ribbon and was never awarded with red-blue-white ribbon. The regular montenegrin silver medal was awarded with red -blue-white one until begginig of 20th century when this was changed and this one startes to be awarded with white-red montenegrin ribbon.

cheers 

7 hours ago, Igor Ostapenko said:

Great !!!

But try another type of Montenegrin bravery medal 

Hi Igor,

i tried allready, i know this bar frim the Belgrade Museum, but this one is the only one with such combination awarded to Serbian officer. Somehow i think that combination of Montenegrin silver bravery medal and Serbian silver bravery medal 1885-1886 would be more common. Thx for the advice!

22 hours ago, paja said:

Finally, a photo with the longer medal bar! 
He was back in the military between 1895 and 1897 and based on his uniform I'd say the photo was made post-1896.
Medal bar consists of the following decorations.
1. Possibly White Eagle V covered with the sash
2. Takovo V with Swords
3. Order of Leopold III (Austria)
4. Legion of Honor IV (France)
5. Order for Bravery IV, 2nd grade (Bulgaria) 
6. Red Cross Order (type 2)
7. ????
8. Commemorative Medal of the Serbian-Ottoman Wars 1876-78

Apart form that I believe he's wearing:
Takovo I
White Eagle II
Order of Christ (Portugal)
Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus I (Italy) 
Possibly Order of the Iron Crown I (Austria)
And one more partially visible star

Hi Paja,

thx a lot for great photo of General Franasovic, i agree with you, this photo is from the period after 1897, on position 7 i think that he is wearing commemorative medal of 40 yrs of St. Andrews assembly.But if its medal od 40 yrs of St Andrews assembly, i think that he would wear also Order of Milos the Great. I think that he was awarded with Order of Milos the Great 2nd class,  but i dont know when he was awarded.

Great finding,

best,

Veljko

3 hours ago, new world said:

Those ribbons for Takovo and medical cross - shouldn't they be different? 

Hi new world, no these are  correct ribbons, for example for ref. pls check excerpt from Muhic-Car book, as their photos are in color.

Maybe you were confused since Red Cross order  from kingdom period has different ribbon - white one  and  Takovo Cross with swords, has different ribbon-the red one. 

But ordinary Takovo Cross (without swords) and Red Cross order (from principality) have the same ribbon, as shown on the bar and photos from the book.

And also related to this topic, here is awarding document for the royal household golden medal with crown 

Close look on the seal of the Marechalate of the court

And if i can contribute to the topic, this is an example of same medal manufactured by Arthus Berthrand. They were made from bronze and guilded, and the crown and letters are slightly different

And here we can compare and see difference between GA Scheid and Arthus Bertrand, golden ones with crown and without are manufactured by Arthus Bertrand and both silver medals are manufactured by GA Scheid 

D

5 hours ago, new world said:

Amazing bar! Did you manage to get it compete?

Hi i actually made some changes and i think that this is 99% how it looked originally. Unfortunatelly I'm still missing Takovo cross with swords 4th class

Ivan Kosancic is a historical person, medieval Serbian knight and nobleman who died in battle of Kosovo with Turks in 1389. He was from  Gornje Toplice, Kosanica river area , near Kursumlija. He was son of Ognjen Kosancic, nobleman and knight from the personal guard of Emperor Dusan Silni. He was recognized as one of the best  swordsman (mačevalac) in Serbian army of that time. He was very famous for his style, fighting with two swords at the same time ,  the long one and short  sword.  

Prince Nicholas  had idea to order for manufacturing two types, golden medal  and silvered , but it was too late when they ordered it from Vinc Meyer - just before planned celebration ( and celebration was planned for 19th Dec  - St Nicholas day according to Serbian orthodox calendar). In addition order was incomplete - Prince Nicholas portrait was not sent tiimely which was corrected and sent immediately after request from Vinc Meyer. Than Vinc Meyer suggested  to produce golden medal from guilded bronze and silver medal from silver with portrait model as received. This was accepted and result is, as we can see, design of medal as in photos attached,  and golden medal was made from guilded bronze and silvered medal from silver.

It was manufactured only in two grades :

golden - made from  gilded bronze 

silver- made from silver

Third type -only bronze, as mentioned in D Romanoff book,  from which i attached excerpt ,doesn't existed, neither was planned or ordered for manufacturing. This was author's mistake.

Really rare medal, it was very reputable in Montenegro to receive this medal , among Montenegrins also known as "medal for long service" (medalja za dugogodisnje sluzbovanje). Designed by Szirmay  and manufactured by Vinc Meyer. It was planned to order from manufacturer 100 gold ones and 400 silver ones. Correct number of received medals  is not known.

And one correction to the text attached, bronze medal doesnt existed, only golden and silver.

40 yrs of reign medal od Prince Nicholas, later King, silver and golden one

Hi Paja i am chasing to find General Franasovic longer bar than this one on a picture. But i can't, in the meantime did you find some new photo of Gen Franasovic with longer bar?

cheers

Very interesting and actual topic Paja. I can add an opinion / gossip that majority of cockades of Kingdom of Serbia and Yugoslavia/SHS are newly produced in Zagreb, that some well known names and even bookwriters  on military topics are involved. I am pretty much sure that you heard this story too. All those newly made cockades are excellently produced so it is allmost imposible to notice the difference between them and the old ones. 

I also saw same question and discussion on one other serbian militaria forum about this same cockade. I can add that one of the discutants there is a person involved in production  and distribution of those  new ones, as i heard.