mariner
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Posts posted by mariner
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On 08/11/2015 13:41:36, mariner said:
Interestingly I've come across another 1887 medal with clasp 1897 this example is to PC J James also of G Division, I wonder whether they were brothers? He also appears to have lived in Holbon at the same time as PC F James? I wonder if he joined up at the same time?
I'm informed that both these medals were procured together, but for reasons unknown they have been separated and sold as individual lots. I always think it's such a shame when medals are separated in this way. It is believed that they where either brothers or father and son?
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On 21/10/2015 11:13:30, mariner said:
Morning Gents,
If I maybe so bold as to reactivate this thread and jump on the band wagon.
Can anyone help me out with PC F James G Division, I believe he was only entitled to the 1887 Jubilee medal.
I suspect that his first name might have been Forbes and that he was stationed in Shoreditch in 1881? Can anyone confirm this for me?Interestingly I've come across another 1887 medal with clasp 1897 this example is to PC J James also of G Division, I wonder whether they were brothers? He also appears to have lived in Holbon at the same time as PC F James? I wonder if he joined up at the same time?
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Many thanks Odin, you're quiet right, he does appear to have been a Sgt certainly by 1902 and according to the census he was living in Barnet in 1901, which I believe was covered by S Division. He appears to have been born on the Old Kent Road in 1865. In 1891 he was living in West Ham, which I believe was covered by K Division. So I suspect it would be anyone's guess as to which station he served in at J Division. However I suspect that he served in J between 1886 and 1891. By 1911 he's living in Hamstead which I believe was as covered by S Division, so all this seems to fit in with the information you've provided. All very interesting stuff so thanks again!!!!!
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Odin, a bit more challenging this one :-)
PC A Brown (1887) J Division also entitled to 1897 clasp. By 1902 he's in S Division.
Would it be possible for you to confirm his first name for me and where he was serving in 1897?
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Has anybody got an interest in the riots? I believe that some 2000 police were called in to deal with the rioters. That would appear to be more officers than A Division would have had, is it known where the other officers were called in from, how long did it take. Would it be possible to confirm an officer involvement in it?
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From a research point of view, are you likely to ascertain more information about an officer who joined after warrant number 51491 than before?
When does warrant number 51491 relate to?
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Odin, that is interesting many thanks indeed!!!!!!!!!
Do you think it's likely that he served his entire service in G Division? Is there anyway of confirming this?
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Many thanks again Odin, for this very interesting information. Such a shame that the pay rolls have been lost!! Hopefully the guy I've found on the census will be the right one, so at least I'll have an address for him. Just out of interest, do you know how many section houses G Division had? I believe that had one which was in fact on H Division? I assume there wasn't one in Holbon? I wonder was my guy in fact married? I'll keep digging....
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Many thanks Odin!! So we know he served 27 years, the last 7 would appear to been with G, if we assume this from his 1887 medal and pension date. Think I may have found him on the 1891 census, living in Holbon. However, I can't seem to find him on the 1871 or 1881, as none of the D.O.Bs tally up? Anyway assuming that I've got the right guy on the 1891 census, has anyone any idea which station he may have worked from? Which G Division stations are where near Holbon in 1891?
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Morning Gents,
If I maybe so bold as to reactivate this thread and jump on the band wagon.
Can anyone help me out with PC F James G Division, I believe he was only entitled to the 1887 Jubilee medal.
I suspect that his first name might have been Forbes and that he was stationed in Shoreditch in 1881? Can anyone confirm this for me?0 -
First things first from a collecting point of view, Caveat Emptor? Or should one of these medals be confirmed would it be more valuable due to its rarety than an `genuine` one?
From a moral point of view, I think that once it was ascertained that the medal had been issued dare I say by mistake then it should be withdrawn until such time that the correct time period had been achieved?
I don't believe the Chief of the force(s) in question could be held to account as he/she just signs them off in bulk I would have thought, but certainly questions need to be asked on the administaration departs within the force(s) in question.
Lastly I don't believe for one minute that the Royal Mint had a new staff memeber who didn't know the criteria, there is certainly something fishy going on there!! I would suggest that the Royal Mint simply produce the medals they have been requested to produce and have no say or question any of these medals.
Further more I am very surprised that this error having come to light has simply been allowed to pass with no follow up or reclaim of the medals in question. I personally think that it devalues the whole medal process and beggars the question, if this is the case then why bother having a long service medal at all.
If this had related to campaign medals, would the awardee have been allowed to keep it, I strongly suggest not!
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I don't believe they will and my argument for this is based on the fact that the Golden Jubilee Medal (2002) has an older Elizabeth as the effigy, but the Iraq war medal (2003) for example has a young Elizabeth effigy. So I would imagine that the effigy will stay the same? HOWEVER Victoria did change the effigy on her medals for an older looking her, an example being the Boer War medal (1899-1901). So I may well be talking through my hat..........
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I don't believe they will and my argument for this is based on the fact that the Golden Jubilee Medal (2002) has an older Elizabeth as the effigy, but the Iraq war medal (2003) for example has a young Elizabeth effigy. So I would imagine that the effigy will stay the same? HOWEVER Victoria did change the effigy on her medals for an older looking her, an example being the Boer War medal (1899-1901). So I may well be talking through my hat..........
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Mariner - I've just done a very quick check through the Met Police Discharge Register for the year 1900 to see how many officers were dismissed. I counted some 64 officers in all were dismissed in that year - of these 22 had joined within the last couple of years or less. That leaves 42 who would have received Jubilee Medals, either the 1887 Medal and bar or the 1897 Medal.
Dismissal rates in the Met were quite high - drunkenness was a continual problem, especially when the Met started. So I suspect there are quite a few Jubilee / Coronation Medals out there for Met Officers - the medals were not forfeited if a man was dismissed. I have a GV Coronation Medal to a PC who was convicted of gross indecency and sent to prison for a year (and obviously dismissed) plus I have several QV and EdVII Medals to men who were also dismissed (for lesser offences).
Medals to dismissed officers do seem to attract a slightly higher premium - the one most people look out for is the GV 1911 Coronation to men who were sacked for striking in 1919. Over a 1000 Met officers were dismissed then and I would think more than 50% would have had that medal. These medals definitely attract a premium as they are fairly easy to identify (with the Police Orders show several lists of the men dismissed for striking).
Many thanks Odin, I'll certainly bear this in mind!!!
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Many thanks chaps for all your replies. But I fear that I haven't explained myself, I'm referring to Police Officers dismissed from the police, during the Victorian/Edwardian era.
HOWEVER, seen as it's been brought up. I'd like to know more about the guy who was a Col but served in WW1 as a Pte, surely he didn't stay as a Pte long before being re-commissioned?
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Curious topic for discussion, medals to dismissed officers from the Victorian/Edwardian period.
Do they command a premium from collectors or are they avoided?
I assume that the officers service papers would still be retained or are they disposed of as they wouldn't be required for pension purposes or anything?
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Here's the translations of the various Latin you'll find on QE11's medals. I assume they equate to various times during her reign? But I may well be wrong there, so don't quote me.
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................and here are the two examples of the regular police LSGC. I believe it also displays the "unplated nickel silver, while the current ones have rhodium plating", , referred to by Robin? But I maybe wrong there?
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Believe this pretty much covers the various permutations of the Special Constable Long Service Medal. There are however, various examples of bars also issued.
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This document is from West Yorkshire Police. The one below is from Kent Police, which goes into a little more detail, which might be of interest?
3.2. Eligibility criteria
3.2.1. All serving officers with Kent Police are eligible for this award. The timing of the award will be calculated based on “pensionable” or “approved” service with Kent Police and any previous “pensionable” or “approved” service as defined within current police regulations. Please note that only aggregated police service will count and not any service in the military or transferred military pension. Previous service as a member of staff with Kent Police or any other police force does not count for the purposes of this award.
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What I find interesting about all this is that the PM has announced the Ebola Medal and said it'll be awarded by June, what about all the other humanitarian crisis's in Africa that haven't attracted the media coverage that Ebola has, are they to get some sort of medal as well?
Why has the Ebola Medal been pushed through so quickly and yet National Defence Medal is meeting so much resistance?
Also there has been no announcement whatsoever (that I'm aware of) with regards to any medal that will be awarded for the ongoing war against the Islamic State?
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You make several very interesting points M. The first being a UN award. I seem to recall and correct me if I'm wrong but when we were bombing Libya, the RAF started operations before NATO became involved and yet only a NATO medal was forth coming. Perhaps as a result of the campaign prior to that being so short that NATO took presidence? With regards to a UN medal are Qatar and the like part of the UN, I'm not sure? Has the UN even given an opinion don't recall hearing them putting their two penneth in? The same can be said for NATO. With the US just using their GWOT (exp) medal to cover it, I wonder whether we'll just re issue the GSM Air Ops Iraq pending ground forces being involved. But if the issue of the Iraq medal in the first place is anything to go by it'll be months if not years before any metallic recognition is forth coming, I wouldn't be at all surprised.
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Seems the DoD is pulling away from the GWOT idea? Perhaps a new medal will be issued after all?
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1887 Jubilee Medals to Metropolitan Police
in Great Britain: Mervyn Mitton's British & Colonial Police Forces
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Thanks again ODIN. I suspect that they are brothers, assuming that I have the right Fred James born 1840 and the right John James born 1856 on the census search (haven't physically looked on the census, just the search engine). I believe that John was stationed in Holbon in 1891 and by 1901 he had moved to St Pancras which I believe was on E Division? So he may have been stationed at Camden Town in Y Division perhaps?