NavalMark

A very nice clock, may i ask from which material the white disk with the cyphers and the ships name is made from ?

Best regards

CSForrester

That is what i meant to see. And you are shure that the dial is not a modern print added to a civilian/merchant ship - clock ? The material, the sharpless print, the name of the ship ....... very uncommon. There are a lot of added dials arround ........................

Regards

CSForrester

A very nice clock, may i ask from which material the white disk with the cyphers and the ships name is made from ?

Best regards

CSForrester

Nice case, but it is a typical case for silver tea-spoons or knifes or ...... something else. The satin on the bottom is typical folded to contain 6 pieces. Please check if the satin has been opened and perhaps wooden pieces to hold spoons or knifes were removed from the bottom.

Those manipulations are very popular at this time in Germany.

Best regards

NavalMark

...and here two photos, on the right in the Vorl?ufige Reichsmarine 1919-1921 with imperial shoulderboard-devices over the stripes, left in the Kriegsmarine.

@Noor:

The correct Name is Fritz Pape. I have found some original pics and also some copys of documents i once owned. The only picture with a ribbon bar shows him with EK II / Mecklenburg KVK / Austria Merit Cross with crown, about mid 1920th. So he did not wear the Messina-medal after WW I.

Here his document for the Sudetenland-Medaille.

Both were in my collection some years ago and the names are correct.

Most of Brocksiens decorations were lost on "KOMET", the ribbon bar and a lot of documents, letters a.s.o. were bought from the family in the 80th.

The ribbon bar of Franz Pape is missing his italian 1908-Messina-earthquake-medal, may be the bar was constructed after Italy entered war against Germany in 1943.

I still have some nice pictures of Franz Pape and will show them here next days.

At first here Pape as a Zahlmeister-Aspirant with the Messina-Medal.

Regards

CSForrester

Not for that

An interesting picture is also the staff of the high sea fleet on board of S.M.S. FRIEDRICH DER GROSSE, may be taken on june, 5th 1916. On that day, the Kaiser visited the fleet and decorated officers with higher decorations like the plm (Scheer and Hipper, some days later von Trotha) RAO2X and HOH KC X (here von Levetzow). The plm at Scheers neck is not to see on this scan, but he is wearing it, i have this pic in 24x16cm.

There are also 4 persons from the list above without the Iron Cross awarded on June, 28th, marked with their numbers from the list. The other Iron Crosses you see on this picture were awarded before jutland, most for Doggerbank or other ocasions.

Regards

CSForrester

..... and an addition:

a nice pic of Nr.20. Kapit?nleutnant Freiherr v. Speth-Sch?lzburg with dedication on the reverse. Commander of turret B on S.M.S. Derfflinger during the battle. Later killed in action as an uboatcommander in the irish sea.

Regards

NavalMark

G.-Anlage zum K.d.B.Nr. 180 v. 28.VI.1916

Kommando

der Hochseestreitkr?fte

G 4619.A.2.

Umdr.Nr. 83

G e h e i m !

Seine Majest?t der Kaiser und K?nig haben das Eiserne Kreuz I. Klasse zu verleihen geruht:

1. Oberleutnant zur See Christ Stab des B.d.A.

2. Korvettenkapit?n Hansen ?

3. Marine-Stabszahlmeister Ploeger ?

4. Korvettenkapit?n D?ms ?

5. Funken-Telegraphie-Meister Jarzombeck Unterstab des B.d.A.

6. Fregattenkapit?n Hillebrand S.M.S. L?tzow

7. Korvettenkapit?n Paschen ?

8. Kapit?nleutnant Schumacher ?

9. Kapit?nleutnant Bode ?

10. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur B?hlk ?

11. Kapit?nleutnant Claessen ?

12. Kapit?nleutnant Jung ?

13. Oberleutnant zur See Sch?nfeld ?

14. Marine-Stabsarzt Gelhar ?

15. Korvettenkapit?n Fischer, Max S.M.S. Derfflinger

16. Korvettenkkapit?n v. Hase ?

17. Kapit?nleutnant v. Jorck ?

18. Kapit?nleutnant Hausser ?

19. Kapit?nleutnant Kossack ?

20. Kapit?nleutnant Freiherr v. Speth-Sch?lzburg ?

21. Kapit?nleutnant Dehn ?

22. Oberleutnant zur See v. Stosch ?

23. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur K?hn ?

24. Korvettenkapit?n v. Alvensleben S.M.S. Seydlitz

25. Kapit?nleutnant L?we, Axel ?

26. Kapit?nleutnant Capelle ?

27. Leutnant zur See Witting ?

28. Marine-Stabsingenieur Looks ?

29. Marine-Ingenieur Lucke ?

30. Marine-Stabsingenieur d.R. Nagel ?

31. Marine-Oberstabsarzt Dr. Amelung ?

32. Artilleriemechaniker Nagel ?

33. Kapit?nleutnant Behr, Gustav S.M.S. Moltke

34. Marine-Stabsingenieur Zenneck ?

35. Kapit?nleutnant Brix ?

36. Korvettenkapit?n Schweppe ?

37. Kapit?nleutnant Schaper, Hans ?

38. Oberst?ckmeister Fredrich ?

39. Kapit?nleutnant Angermann ?

40. Oberleutnant zur See Fricke, Kurt ?

41. Marine-Oberingenieur Krieghoff ?

42. Korvettenkapit?n Scheibe S.M.S. Von der Tann

43. Kapit?nleutnant Kurth ?

44. Kapit?nleutnant Groos ?

45. Kapit?nleutnant Kurth ?

46. Kapit?nleutnant J?hnke ?

47. Marine-Stabsingenieur Berg ?

48. Marine-Oberingenieur d. S. K?ntzel ?

49. Kapit?nleutnant Jacobi ?

50. Oberleutnant zur See Prahl ?

51. Oberleutnant zur See Hellhoff, G?nther Stab d.F.d.II.A.Gr.

52. Kapit?nleutnant Hoppenstedt S.M.S. Frankfurt

53. Kapit?nleutnant Meyer, Georg ?

54. Kapit?nleutnant Kraus ?

55. Marine-Stabsingenieur Rubach ?

56. Korvettenkapit?n Berrenberg S.M.S. Pillau

57. Marine-Stabsingenieur K?ppen ?

58. Kapit?nleutnant Matthiae ?

59. Kapit?nleutnant v. Blanquet ?

60. Kapit?nleutnant Warber S.M.S. Elbing

61. Kapit?nleutnant Witzell ?

62. Marine-Oberingenieur Wenzel ?

63. Oberleutnant zur See Flemming, Hans-Kurt Stab des F.d.IV.A.G.

64. Kapit?nleutnant Pierstorff S.M.S. Stettin

65. Kapit?nleutnant Zores, Ludwig ?

66. Kapit?nleutnant Mertens S.M.S. Stuttgart

67. Oberleutnant zur See Croll ?

68. Kapit?nleutnant v. Koblinski S.M.S. M?nchen

69. Marine-Stabsingenieur Kribben ?

70. Oberleutnant zur See Mayrhofer Stab des I. F.d.T.

71. Kapit?nleutnant Graf v. Schweinitz, Hermann S.M.S. Rostock

72. Marine-Stabsingenieur Scharnweber ?

73. Kapit?nleutnant Knobloch, Reinhold ?

74. Oberleutnant zur See Dethleffsen Stab des II. F.d.T.

75. Kapit?nleutnant Kiep S.M.S. Regensburg

76. Kapit?nleutnant v. dem Borne ?

77. Marine-Stabsingenieur Larbig ?

78. Kapit?nleutnant Schepke ?

79. Kapit?nleutnant Ehlers S.M.S. Hamburg

80. Marine-Oberingenieur Schr?der, Wilhelm ?

81. Marine-Ingenieur Noack S.M. Torpedoboot S 32

82. Marine-Stabsingenieur Kilb S.M. Torpedoboot G 87

83. Marine-Oberingenieur Tolkmitt S.M. Torpedoboot V 30

84. Kapit?nleutnant Pasquay Chef der I. U-Halbflottille

85. Kapit?nleutnant Prause Chef der IV. U-Halbflottille

86. Leutnant zur See d. R. Illing, Hans S.M. Unterseeboot UB 21

87. Unterseeboots-Steuermann Schultz, Gustav S.M. Unterseeboot 52

88. Kapit?nleutnant Koch, Robert S.M. Luftschiff ???

89. Korvettenkapit?n Wegener Stab des I. Geschwaders

90. Korvettenkapit?n v. Falkenried ?

91. Korvettenkapit?n Gartzke ?

92. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur K?ser ?

93. Oberleutnant zur See Nennecke ?

94. Korvettekapit?n Pfeiffer, Franz S.M.S. Ostfriesland

95. Korvettenkapit?n Stricker ?

96. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur Halbrock ?

97. Korvettenkapit?n Roedenbeck S.M.S. Th?ringen

98. Kapit?nleutnant Franz, Adolf ?

99. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur Wolf, Ernst ?

100. Korvettenkapit?n Stever S.M.S. Helgoland

101. Korvettenkapit?n Richter, Heinrich ?

102. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur Berndt, Franz ?

103. Korvettenkapit?n Vollmer S.M.S. Oldenburg

104. Kapit?nleutnant Hermann, Willy ?

105. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur Bauer, Heinrich ?

106. Fregattenkapit?n Reichardt S.M.S. Posen

107. Korvettenkapit?n Werther ?

108. Marine-Stabsingenieur Bartel ?

109. Korvettenkapit?n v. Gorrissen S.M.S. Rheinland

110. Kapit?nleutnant Fr?msdorf ?

111. Marine-Stabsingenieur M?ller ?

112. Korvettenkapit?n Helf S.M.S. Nassau

113. Kapit?nleutnant v. Richthofen ?

114. Marine-Stabsingenieur Koch, Paul ?

115. Korvettenkapit?n Hinsch S.M.S. Westfalen

116. Kapit?nleutnant Wolff, Paul ?

117. Kapit?nleutnant Freudenberg, Walter ?

118. Korvettenkapit?n Kahlert Stab des II. Geschwaders

119. Korvettenkapit?n Becker, Maximillian S.M.S. Schlesien

120. Korvettenkapit?n Blockhuis S.M.S. Deutschland

121. Korvettenkapit?n Klehe S.M.S. Schleswig-Holstein

122. Korvettenkapit?n Schultze-Jena S.M.S. Hessen

123. Korvettenkapit?n v. Selchow S.M.S. Hannover

124. Marine-Chefingenieur Bock-Metzner Stab des II. Geschwaders

125. Korvettenkapit?n Beesel Stab des III. Geschwaders

126. Korvettenkapit?n Toelpe ?

127. Korvettenkapit?n Klausa ?

128. Marine-Chefingenieur Wadehn ?

129. Korvettenkapit?n Bendemann S.M.S. K?nig

130. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur Epping, Walter ?

131. Kapit?nleutnant Leusel, Ernst ?

132. Marine-Oberingenieur d. S. I. Gerold ?

133. Ober-Maschinist Gro? ?

134. Artillerieobermechaniker R?sch ?

135. Korvettenkapit?n Br?kelmann S.M.S. Grosser Kurf?rst

136. Korvettenkapit?n Dollmann, Leo ?

137. Marine-Stabsingenieur Rohwedder ?

138. Marine-Oberingenieur Kr?ger ?

139. Meister Heide ?

140. St?ckmeister Eckhoff ?

141. Korvettenkapit?n Teichmann S.M.S. Markgraf

142. Korvettenkapit?n Schumann, Walter ?

143. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur K?hl ?

144. Ober-Signalmeister Marotz ?

145. Ober-Maschinistenmaat Burmeister ?

146. Leutnant zur See v. G?tz ?

147. Korvettenkapit?n Tietgens S.M.S. Kronprinz

148. Korvettenkapit?n Esbedank ?

149. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur Altenfeld ?

150. Korvettenkapit?n Karcher S.M.S. Kaiser

151. Korvettenkapit?n v. Hugo ?

152. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur Sch?dle ?

153. Fregattenkapit?n Schubart S.M.S. Prinzregent Luitpold

154. Korvettenkapit?n Lohmann ?

155. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur Ohme ?

156. Korvettenkapit?n Dombrowsky S.M.S. Kaiserin

157. Korvettenkapit?n Wehner, Gustav ?

158. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur Siegmon, Friedrich ?

159. Korvettenkapit?n Batsch S.M.S. Friedrich der Grosse

160. Korvettenkapit?n v. Nostiz u. J?nkendorf ?

161. Marine-Oberstabsingenieur Heinke ?

162. Korvettenkapit?n Wilke, Wilhelm Stab der Hochseestreitkr?fte

163. Marine-Oberchefingenieur Sch?tzler ?

164. Kapit?nleutnant Heusinger v. Waldegg ?

165. Marine-Generalarzt Dr. Gudden ?

166. Oberleutnant zur See Mirow ?

gez. Scheer

Sorry Sir,

i dont understand your kind of humour .... or as a native German i dont have any humour.

Shall i send you the scans so you can type them yourself and you will have a lot of fun ?

Have a good night, Sir,

NavalMark

Yes, that is easier and if you give me some days i will do it. I have typed out all awards mentioned in the Marineverordnungsblatt from 1871-1918 and some more .............. about 30.000 entrys with name, awared, rank, unit and date. You can download the lists here .........

http://sammlergemeinschaft-deutscherauszei...achmentid=29232

Can i post an excel-list here ?

Best regards

CSForrester

Unfortunately i only have bad copys from the Bundesarchiv, i got them many years ago from a friend. Also i do not know the signature from Freiburg, so i can not order better or more pages.

So if i post here the pages with 110kb you can read not more than 50%. Again my suggestion to send someone the larger pics by email who can post them here with more kb?s.

Such lists are distributed over all the records from the imperial navy, the 2nd classes should be found in the records on regimental base, so here in the records of the ships or flottillen. I have seen a lot of lists in the records but every unit has had its own lists for the 2nd class.

So it is a hard job to search for them in Freiburg.

Regards

NavalMark

Oh, what a surprise ..............

Rick, please give me an email-adress and i will send you the scans.

Best regards

NavalMark

I dont know if this list from the Bundesarchiv is known to the public ?

Dated June, 28, 1916 with 169 recepients of the IC 1st class.

Best regards

NavalMark

To compare:

here is the HOSSAUER mark on my 4th class model 1846-1854.

Regards

CSForrester

Hello Alex,

as mentioned above, there are 4 period variants of the red eagle order 4th class:

1. 1830-1846 cross with smooth arms, completly silver, no enameled medaillon

2. 1846-end of 1850th cross with smooth arms, enameled medaillon and violet eagle !!!!

3. end of 1850th - 1879 cross with smooth arms, enameled medaillon and brickred eagle !!!!

4. 1879-1918 cross with grained arms, enameled medaillon and brickred eagle

Hossauers Jewelry worked until the mid 1850 years and was then sold to Wilm i think. So your 4th class is the real second type and much rarer than the 3rd type with brickred eagle. And it is an original.

Regards

CSForrester

2nd type with swords ? Thats the one with the violet eagle, while the 1st type is the one with non-enameled medaillon. So you mean the 3rd type from 1854-1879 with smooth arms and brick-red eagle ? For this type RAOs prices are correct !

Regards

CSForrester

No.1 is a Maschinen-Ingenieur, Paymaster oder special branch officer with rank Premierleutnant (retired) of the early imperial german navy. A Naval Officer would have golden fields in the epaulets, here we have black velvet oder dark blue cloth. On the epaulets could be a cogwheel on anchor, a silver anchor, an "F" or an anchor crossed with an early mine.

He is not an official, officials had no stripes on the cuff in that time.

Regards

CSForrester

............... it belonged to Oberbootsmann von M?hldorfer , S.M.S. HOHENZOLLERN.

But you will not find the Jerusalemkreuz behind his name in the Ranglist, the Jerusalemkreuz is not mentioned. What a pitty!

Regards

NavalMark

If someone will find this medalbar ............................

Hello Ferg1, thanks for the picture ! Yes, it seems that both badges were made with the same tool. Details of oaks and laurel are much better on mine, i think yours have been polished very often. All in all the quality for a reduced badge is not bad.

They are rarely seen and i think only a few were produced or were not sold in the 30years and still in stock 1945. Deumer and Steinhauer did not offer reduced Naval badges after 1945, so an other maker with a untypical setup.

Thanks again and best regards

Markus

....and the reverse :

With interest i have seen that some experts for imperial flying badges are online in this forum. About 10 years ago i have bought a stock of 1957-awards from a former uniformtailor in Germany. Among these decorations was also a reduced-size imperial badge for naval pilots of Landplanes.

Is is hollow, 49mm high and 36mm wide, weight is 6,35g. It is struck from brass and the front is gilted. I have never seen a second item with this setup.

Most of the other decorations from this stock were made by Assmann.

All opinions are welcome! Thanks and regards

NavalMark

Hello Stijn,

yes, the date is from my Excel-file with the dates from the Marineverordnungsblatt and so a "little to late".

Regards

NavalMark ( alias CSForrester )

Decorations of Vizeadmiral Werner Grassmann.

-Belgium, Leopold-Order military Knightscross, awarded 19.10.1912 to Leutnant zur See Werner Grassmann, S.M.S VICTORIA LOUISE

-Siam, Order of the White Elephant, Knightscross, awarded 10.8.1915 to Oberleutnant zur See Werner Grassmann, S.M.S. VICTORIA LOUISE.

Regards

NavalMark