leigh kitchen

That does not look like an UNMEE ribbon to me. That looks like the Queens Golden Jubilee Medal (Canada).

Would'nt a jubilee medal be worn after campaign but before long service awards, as in UK, rather than taking precedence over this mans campaign medals? Are UN medals counted the same as home country awards in Canada, or do Canadian medals of any type take precedence over UN medals as being foreign awards?

What are his details?

I've just ahd a flick through Mike Chappell's "The British Soldier in the 20th Century 2, Field Service Head Dress 1902 to the present day" (Weesex Military Publishing, 1987) - a num,ber of little colour illustrations of examples of the glengary as worn by some different units with khaki Service Dress circa WWI - that of the Black Watch is shown without a black bow.

I think the BW wore their badge on a black rosette, might be wrong though.

Looks pretty good to me. Well worth taking apart and killing that awful verdigris.

What is it about matelots & verdigris? Always polishing the old brass monkeys or the powder monkeys or whatever.

I don't know anything about thes glangarys, but I think that the reference to "1st pattern glengary" may be to it's wear in the era when they were a general item of issue headgear (the 1870's?) & had not yet been restricted to Scottish units - I'm not sure that the black bow was worn at that time by even Scottish units, but I may very well be wrong on that.

North Midland Divisional Train Army Service Corps

Divisional Trains and Supply Columns were different units (my grandfather was in the 3rd Canadian Divisional Train 1916).

"North Midland Divisional Transport And Supply Column, ASC" I should have said - at least, that's what Ray Westlake states in "Collecting Metal Shoulder Titles".

He states that North Midland Divisional Transport And Supply Column, ASC contained:

North Midland Divisional Company, Lincoln and Leicester Brigade Company, Staffordshire Brigade Company and the Notts and Derby Brigade Company

Don't know exactly when Indian Army units began to use them, but they back a good long way. Not just for berets, as you say, but anywhere "soft" headgear would bring pins into contact with the wearer's skull: beret, turban...

Peter

I don't know about Indian Army units, but obviously long sliders were fitted (sometimes locally) to HP centres etc for wear with the pagri.

I don't really think that authority cared about the the comfort of troops in terms of loop fittings & foreheads & soft headgear - eg badges such as those of the RRF & RWF of the 1960's onwards - wide anodised metal "prongs" about 3/4" or an inch long on a badge only ever intended to be worn on the beret as OR's & Junior NCO's of the units only wear berets not caps.

As asides, some units had there loop fittings changed locally for sliders - my father as a WWII / Palestine era member of 1 WG states that their cap badges were altered by having the sliders fitted simply for convenience of removal for cleaning etc.

A WG officer by the name of Johnson I think - author of "Miracle on The Marne"? states that in his end of WWII Guards officer training squad, his Irish Sgt Major studied him closely on parade one morning before enquiring along the lines of "Johnson, phwhat is it that's wrong with your bog-brush?" as his WG badge was fitted with a slider & was wonky in his cap.

Not a lot to do with anything, but I like the story.

Sliders were not used on badges purely for wear on the beret, they were in use prior to WWI, suggestions are that they came in about 1911, but I would have thought before that.

"North Midland Divisional Transport And Supply Column"

It's the badge worn by sergeants of the 42nd. They amalgamated with another numbered regiment in 1881, and "lost" the number in favour of a name, the new regiment adopting St Andrew as a centrepiece to the badge instead of the number 42.

The 42nd had the lowest number within the union of the two regiments & thus being the senior of the two they became the 1st Battalion of the new, named regiment.

They chose to keep the old 42 badge for their sergeants.

It appears that this tradition continued past the death of Queen Victoria in 1901 (after which the crown design should have changed to a sloping sided crown - the Tudor Crown also known as the King's Crown as it used during the reigns of Kings Edward VII, George V, Edwards VIII & George VI up until about 1952).

The variety of Victorian Crown used on the badge is not the usual "big eared" version of Queen Victoria's Crown but a lesser used design worn by a few units and is not dissimilar to the King's Crown, although they are different. This may have assisted in extending the badges life beyond circa 1881 as to the flat topped Victorian Crown could be easily mistaken for the correct King's Crown.

It is possible that the regiment did'nt want to dispose of stocks of expensive badges (being multi - part with gilded components), although no doubt they would have wanted to maintain their "42" in use.

It appears that about 1926 there was an issue of the "42" badge with the King's Crown - perhaps authority had caught up with the battalion (although if that was the case I'd have expected the "42" to have been replaced by St Andrew in the centre as well as the crown to be changed), perhaps the supply of old flat topped Victorian badges ran out & the dies were no longer available or it was just thought appropriate to change to a King's Crown at last.

At some point a version of the badge with King's Crown & St Andrew in the centre has been produced - perhaps this had been worn post death of Queen Victoria by the sergeants of the 2nd Battalion?

About 1936 (I think) the title of the regiment was changed from The Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) to The Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) which meant that the names on the two sets of scrolls needed to be swapped around.

Instead of this being done it was decided to dispense with the scrolls - hence the versions of the regiments badges without the name scrolls - however instead of the patterns with scrolls being replaced they carried on in use and appear to have been worn through WWII and in some cases into the 1950's.

Absence of the Sphinx & "EGYPT" on a Black Watch badge means that that badge was not worn by a Regular Army Battalion.

As an aside, similar badges to those of the Black Watch were worn by The Glasgow Highlanders, who were nothing to do with The Black Watch, (being a Territorial Force Battalion of a completely different regiment, The Highland Light Infantry), & by The Highland Cyclist Battalion, another T.F. unit the badges of these units lacked the sphnx & "EGYPT".

Your badge is that of Sergeants of the pre 1881 42nd, which continued in use by sergeants of the 1st Battalion Royal Highlanders (Black Watch) following the 42nd's amalgamation into that regiment in 1881, and appears to have been worn up until at least 1926.

A quick edit - when I said in my previous post that I had a King's Crown version of this badge with St. Andrew in the centre but that I thought it was a fake, I did'nt mean that a badge of this design did'nt exist as a genuine badge, just that the example I own is possibly a fake.

_______________

Nothing Significant To Report.

The bloke in the middle - who's he? Looks like he's wearing a Light Infantry tie - medals include WWII France & Germany Star, a General Service Medal with a couple of campaign bars, a Korean War pair, a post 1962 Campaign Service Medal & a UNFICYP.

The photos taken in Holland? Is he connected with Arnhem? Or a bit further afield, Pegasus Bridge?

I feel I should know this man from the history books?

I would'nt have made out the mystery medal from the photo - I was going to suggest an Omani medal from what I could make out of the design.

The Drill Sgt appears to be wearing the UNMIBH, not the UNPROFOR Medal, from the ribbon.

Why would a UN serving Canadian police officer be attached to the British army / police - surely they are part of a national police contingent within a UN Missions Civilian Police Contingent?

Just had another look - looks like I'm wrong & it is the UNPROFOR ribbon.

The badge has the flat topped Victorian Crown, so at face value was worn from 1881 (post Cardwell Reforms and the demise of numbers in favour of names) but NCOs of the Black Watch carried on wearing the old style badge with "42" in the centre instead of St Andrew for decades after.

Kipling & King 497 shows the numbered badge with flat topped Victorian Crown, KK 656 the version with St Andrew in the centre & the post Victorian Kings Crown.

John Gaylor refers to the badge with Victorian Crown and "42" as being worn prior to 1881, and that it continued to be worn post 1881 by Sergeants of the 1st Battalion, with a Kings Crown version appearing in 1926.

KK & Gaylor state that the yellow metal was gilded.

Is this badge multi ? part or are the different components sweated together?

They?re always stated to be multi part badges held together with split pins, I have a Kings Crown St. Andrew centre version that has the different metals sweated together, I?ve always viewed it as a fake.

I can?t tell from the photos whether I?d view the badge & glengary you are showing as genuine but then I?m lousy working from photo

Not sure, but is he wearing the light blue suit with white shirt & red tie worn by convalescing wounded?

Known as "Hospital Blues"

RAF for RAF, SA for South African, Howard Williams conjectures whether Merchant Navy would be MN or BT for Board of Trade.

I think that the wound badges issued during WWII were only in braid, not in metal, with a red braid version representing WWI or other pre - WWII wounds, a gold version WWII wounds.

Soldiers Died to my recollection does not include RFC officers.

Nick

Yes it does - 2,577 of them.

Also produced for the US 5th Army..........

The Defence Medal - 3 years or 6 months or 3 months service qualified for it, depending on type and location of service, although service curtailed by death or injury n some circumstances automatically qualified, as did award of a gallantry medal or decoration.

Excerpt from an appendix to conditions of award of 1946:

Change in the Time Qualification for the Defence Medal.

9. The present time qualification is three years at home in a territory subject to enemy attacks or closely threatened, this being reduced to three months for mine and bomb disposal units of the Forces. The time qualification for military service overseas from or outside the country of residence is twelve months. This period of twelve months is now reduced to six for service in territories subjected to enemy air attack or closely threatened.

The Defence Medal 10 (viii) Special awards states:

Service in eligible categories brought to an end before the period of three years or twelve, six, or three months active service has been completed, either by death due to enemy action when on duty, or by injuries entitling the candidate to a Wound Stripe, completion, will be a qualification for the grant of the Defence Medal.

Also, although the closing date for qualification for Forces personnel was 8/5/45, service overseas from, or outside the country of residence continued to qualify up until 2/9/45.

Depending on service then, the time qualification was between 3/9/39 - 2/9/45, for 3 years, 6 months, 3 months or by death or Wound Stripe earning wound by enemy action.

So a number of the examples given in this thread appear to qualify - eg, the wounded Sapper, the 2 air force fatalities.

Other examples given in the thread may also qualify - I just have'nt got the capacity to address them yet - this stuff does my head in.

I need to sit and scan all the info in the pamphlet & post it here.

And the reverse...

To Private Archibald Sutherland of The 72nd Highlanders.

She was dirty when she was younger too..........

I used a small pointed steel hair clip to remove a bad touch of verdigris from an old "brass" badge, it took time but worked without scratching.

I'm fairly certain that these were no longer to be worn after 1922.

'Fraid not..........

I have photos. letters, WWI pair of medals, death plaque etc of a 10th Bn Essex Regt man, a Private William Pearson.

He was killed during an attack in October (I think) 1916, during the Battle of the Somme, when the Essex advanced along a sunken road between Guedecourt - Beuvencourt, attacking the Germans in Misty & Cloudy Trenches.

A company of Essex got into the 2nd or 3rd line of trenches but were unsupported to a flank and cut off when the Germans counterattacked.

I also have the medals etc to his 4 sons, one of whom had the same name and was a Cambs Regt fatality at Singapore in WWII. His wife remarried and had a son, I have his medals etc too.

My uncle Sid Kitchen was pre-war / WWII 20th London, I met him for the first time in about 20 years or more a few months ago, I knew that he was looking for a 20th London white horse cap badge & posted ione to him a few days ago. He wore that badge initially, then the RE's, then the RA's, as the unit changed titles and roles within a decade or less in the 30's - 40's.

I've photos of him badges up as RE & RA, but have to find out if he has one of himself wearing the horse.