Paul H1

They actually were part of the combat engineers and wore Pionier/Artillery type uniforms.

The divisional Minenwerfer-Kompagnie was part of the divisional Pionier-Bataillon (combat engineers).

There were also 13 independent Minenwerfer battalions in the Imperial German Army.

I know this is a long time past, but there were actually 23 independent Minenwerfer battalions in the Imperial German Army, vice 13.

Paul

No problem;

Ulsterman is right you cannot get some years, but here are the years I downloaded so-far: 1859, 1864, 1866, 1871, 1872, 1874, 1876, 1879

Hardy

Oh, my heart went pitter-patter for a moment. I've been trying to get a copy of Nr. 119 from 1934 for almost a year. Oh well, guess I need to keep trying.

Paul

I apologize, I wanted to post something earlier to follow up on Chris' series of posts.

If I may go back to 29 February 1916 (1916 was leap year).

Faced with ever increasing losses on the east bank, both from the fighting there, and the flanking fire from the French artillery on the west bank, Falkenhayn releases reserves to broaden the attack to the west bank. These forces had been available in OHL reserve before the attack began, but were held out of 5th Army's control.

From the standpoint of the initial objective of the attack (Falkenhayn's objective)--namely the seizure of the Meuse heights on the east bank--the attack up to this point had failed to reach its goal. The attack had reached a virtual standstill at this point, and the Germans, facing ever increasing French strength, had lost the initial factor of surprise, though they maintained a considerable superiority in artillery strength at this point.

The weakness of the German position on the Western Front in early 1916 comes clearly into focus at this stage. Faced with increasing French strength at Verdun, and the requests of the commanders there for fresh troops and material, Falkenhayn was faced with the reality of fighting an offensive battle against a much superior enemy. He also wanted to husband his reserves to either meet an Allied relief offensive, or launch his own second offensive later, as the situation developed.

Faced with the reality of Verdun, he was forced to commit more troops. In hoping to spark a prestige battle with the French (in the hopes of inflicting attrition on a point the French would be unwilling to surrender) Falkenhayn sowed the seed of German defeat at Verdun. The battle became a matter of prestige for both sides, and the Germans were forced to throw more and more troops into the battle and the original concept of the battle was lost.

Falkenhayn's refusal to provide adequate infantry forces to maintain the attack meant that the stalled battle was essentially lost by February 29. From this point on the battle became a slugging match with growing losses on both sides. As the balance of forces shifted slowly in favor of the French the hoped for loss ration of 2 Germans to 5 Frenchman was never approached.

Paul

I am trying to pull together some information on the Russian and Austro-Hungarian armies of World War One. I have a general idea of the size and composition of platoon sized units but I have not found any information on how these units would be employed in combat. And the changes that their employment underwent during the course of the war. My lack of Russian and German language skills is hindering my efforts. Is there anyone who can point me in the right direction? Did they follow the example of other countries (GB, France or Germany) or did they have their own unique twist on things?

Thanks,

Chris

Chris,

Have you tried "The Handbook of the Russian Army, 1914,"? That would be a good english-language referenc to start with...

Paul

No, it was a trip over it and break your leg thing, a huge chunk of steel, still laying there as dangerous as on the day it was born.

Hello Chris,

Don't know what to tell ya. As far as anything I've read the nearest a 30,5cm Austrian gun came to Verdun was what I posted a few months ago. There definitely weren't any there during the battle in 1916.

Paul

Hi,

I remember JensF once mentioning finding an Austrian shell in the forest at Verdun... cannot remember what though...

37mm?

Ooooops... we missed the 21st!

Is there any reason WHY the different Korps seemingly made up their own objectives? One would have thought these had carefully been thought out.

Best

Chris

Chris,

Perhaps better said they approached their goals in a different fashion. The orders were to seize the first line only, or if meeting resisitance in the first line return to the jumping off points.

The commander of VII. RK realized he had about 1500 meters of open ground to cover, and I don't think he relished crossing it on the second morning, so he decided to take all his men across and not lose the element of surprise. The other two corps commanders followed the orders more to the letter. The goals were set out, and guidance given, but as was often times found in the German Army the corps commander had a lot of freedom to accomplish his task. More of a "I want you to take this, but you figure out how," attitude.

Paul

On 21 February 1916 the German 5th Army started its offensive at Verdun. The attack had originally been scheduled to start on 12 February, but had been delayed due to bad weather.

The initial bombardment lasted nine hours, concentrating on the French front lines, Verdun, various forts in the fortress system, and the communications routes leading to Verdun and the French IInd Army.

The German infantry left their trenches late in the day, 1700, and the nature of the actions varied with each of the German assault Corps. On the right flank, the VII. R.K launched a general attack, in waves, and captured large portions of the French first and second lines. Its neighbor to the left, the XVIII. A.K., launched only officer's patrols, and less than 100 men left the trenches on the entire corps front. Meeting resistance in the French second line they had returned to their own trenchs by the morning of 22 February. On the left flank, III. A.K. also launched probes, and meeting resistance stopped.

The objective for the first day's attack had been the seizure of the first French trench, and observation of the artillery effects on the French second line. When VII. R.K. reported its initial successes, 5th Army had ordered the other two Corps to "Take everything you can." The order, coming so late in the day, could not be followed.

Paul

Indeed.

And what is an interesting thought, these are not like is so often seen bunkers in the sides of a hill.

I imagine in 1919 or so they just filled this up with sand and bomb debris and there are big underground hollows there today..... with beds, stoves, bits of mouldy cloth and the occasional long forgotten body....

Chris,

I guess it would depend on the construction. I know there are complete bunker complexes still at Verdun. I had a friend who did his doctorate research there in the forests (hard work, but someone has to do it) and he did some exploration of these complexes.

Paul

most trench photos evoke boredom or terror or

misery or carnage....

these evoke dispassionate, methodical planning and

reemphasize to me the grand scale of the lack of

thought for the lowest common denominator - the trooper.

eerie.

joe

Joe,

I think as a trooper I'd be pretty happy there. I see duckboards and what look like the entrancres to big bunkers--dry feet and cover--always good

Paul

As that forum no longer exists... we are trying a small Verdun sub forum of our own down in the WW1 history section.... if anyone is interested, please drop by....

Chris,

Thanks for starting this up. As you know, the plug on the old Verdun forum Jens mentioned above was pulled without any warning at all--leaving the members without any chance to form another group. I should mention that Jen's himself was not involved in the poor handling of this closure.

Hopefully we can have some good discussions here.

Paul

Best to differentiate with "Beamter" in the form interesting for collectors... and EVERYTHING that falls under the term as understood by the rest of Germany.

Nowdays when you say "Beamter" you include Teachers, the taxman, Policemen, People who work for local govt as officials etc. etc.

I dont know if those who qualify has changed over the decades....

Chris is absoultely right. It's an interesting term, and one that can cause confusion even today.

A Beamter is as Chris described, but can have the somewhat negative connotation of someone who sits on his arse and get's paid to make your life difficult. I asked this in Austria as well, and was told the same thing.

When I told a good German friend I was a "Beamter" (I'm a government employee) he laughed and said, "Jetzt muss' ich zweimal "Sie" sagen!" That gave me a good laugh.

edit: Wanted to add, that I think the perfect example of a Beamter is the old position of "Bezirkshauptmann" in Austria.

Paul

Indeed. Munitions columns are a bit obscure. I would hav thought the "Teeth" Arms would have been a better priority.

Regards

Glenn

Glenn,

Maybe it was a marketing decision. The Fussartillerie volumes will have to be massive, and I would imagine would take a great deal of time to put together. I've been working at the archives in Freiburg and Stuttgart on this, and it is a wonderfully complex topic!

Paul

I have ben in contact with Stefan Rest, the publisher, and he informs me that the 2 volumes on the Munitionskolonnen will be published in Feb 09 with the single volume on the Reserve Infantry Regiments being available in late 2009.

Regards,

Ian

Too bad they aren't doing the Fussartillerie first--that's an arm that could use a good reference book for formations.

Paul

Simple typo. The brain sees what it intends, not what the fingies strike. Fixed.

Thanks Rick,

Living in this area I'm always interested in these State awards. It's amazing what the archives of Hessen hold on the state forces before 1866. Makes me a bit jealous being a Great War guy!!

Paul

...I'm not quite sure what the story with THAT was, since Hessen-Homburg WAS a sovereign micro-state until 1960, when Hessen-Darmstadt absorbed it...

Rick,

Do you mean 1860? Hessen-Homburg went to Hessen-Darmstadt in 1866, then to Prussia and was combined with Nassau to form Hessen-Nassau.

Paul

Chris,

It looks like a 0,60 line running up to it. Should be pretty easy to find the location. What are your clues for Chaumont?

Paul

Chris,

The second picture is very interesting. That big-boy is a 15 cm K/L30. There were a few s. 15 cm K batterie's deployed at Verdun. Is there any caption on the photo?

Paul

these are obviously Austrians, but the card is stamped from Verdun. Also, the guy on the very left seems German.

Maybe paul can have a go at this?

Heya Chris,

There were no Austian 30,5 cm batteries at Verdun. They were deployed close, at Forts Troyon and Liouville, in September 1914. Ft. Troyon is about 20 km, as the crow flies, south of Verdun, so I could see why someone might lable the picture as such.

Paul

Yes, I know, but for those around him, it is still "Colonel" -- modesty!

One of the funniest things I ever witnessed in my 22 years in the Air Force. We were conducting operations off the coast of Libya back when Libya was a "big bad guy," in American foreign policy.

Our Colonel wanted us to do something really dangerous and stupid. He kept arguing with the pilot about the mission. He finally said, "Damnit Capitain, I'm a Colonel, you're a Capitain, is there something you don't understand about this equation?" The Capitain answered, "With all due respect Sir, Qadaffi is a Colonel too."

Exit left red-faced Colonel and Capitain. Not sure what happened in the hallway, but we did do the mission the capitain's way.

Paul

Paul,

That's interesting. 251 Divisions does not mention a divisional change and Kraus has no information on the divisional attachment for this regiment. May I ask where this info comes from? I'm not doubting it, just interested in an unknown (to me) source.

Chip

Chip,

It's from Kraus, "Handbuch der Verb?nde und Truppen des deutschen Heeres 1914 ? 1918," IX, band 1, page 475.

Paul

More specifically attached to the 7. Reserve Division, 30 September 18- till the end of the war.

Paul

Paul,

Thanks for the reply. I could not imagine that this book would be so huge. Is it really available for inter-library loan? Does it matter what library you use?

Thanks again,

Chip

Chip,

I don't know in the States...I would use the "find a library website"

Find a Library

You search for the title, in this case just search "Eike Mohr," then it gives you the option to enter a zipcode and it tells you the nearest library that has the book. You could then go and get it through inter-library loan I would imagine.

Paul

Indeed. That's why I always say

don't collect foot artillery or cavalry!!!!

Rick,

The Fussartillerie is a disaster. The history was never written, though a lot of the materials for it are in the BA-MA archives in Freiburg. The Ehrenbuch is good, BUT the big problems is it doesn't have a indexed list of units mentioned. I think this was planned, but never published.

I've been doing a lot of work on the heavies at Verdun, and this had involved three trips to Freiburg and two trips the archives in Stuttgart. Even during the battle of Verdun the units were reorganized, some units shedding batteries, gaining others.

Another example. The official history lists a unit 9. batterie, Fussartillerie Regiment 2 (9./Fusa2). This unit was actually s. 15 cm Kanonen Batterie No. 9, and had been since 1915. The OH lists the wrong type of weapon for the battery just to make the confusion complete for anyone looking for a reference.

When these units changed designators a new battery almost always stepped in to take its place. I've even seen this happen within Regiments. Batteries were simply renumbered and became part of another battalion.

You would have to know and find the reference to the unit you're looking for at the exact time of the event (as Chris is seeking) otherwise you could be tracking the wrong unit.

Paul

How can one access this book that lists the units known to have had histories written. I have heard of it, but don't know where it is to be found. If it just lists the name of the book, author, printer, date, etc., it can't be that big. Anyone have any information on this?

Regards,

Chip

Chip,

There's actually a copy for sale on ZVAB at 70 euros...which is a good price. I've seen it sold for more. The book is 780 pages--it's big.

Here is the extract for the unit Chris was asking about:

<1,20,37(2.37),85>

Now if Chris would go get his library card he could borrow it for 1 euro through the German library system.

Paul