TS Allen

I mistook him for the dead fellow! I'm not too familiar with how the little kindgdom's been going for the last few years, although now I think I'm going to start reading into it again. I used to be fascinated by those little islands, many of which were once part of grand empires, but now soldier own alone, complete with multi-million dollar trust-funds and welfare economies.

~TS

A tremendous grouping there! I've never seen the overcoats. I'm curious, what did that grouping go for? And what's that pillbox cap? Do you happen to have the auction description? I only recognize maybe half the items on there.

As to the King of Tonga, I seem to remember that he died a few years back? I do remember that he used to wear an Old Swedish uniforms, or, more likely, considering his size and status, a perfect copy of it (fabric too!) when I saw him in a PBS interview. His uniform looks like a British rifles regiment uniform?

~TS

I'm looking for some good references that show Indian Army uniforms in WWI. I've got a handful of Osprey publications, mostly on the Northwest Frontier or other colonial conflicts, that have some information but they haven't proven of much use. I've also been using the amazing picture section on britishempire.co.uk which I suspect is the most extensive of its kind on the web.

I'm also looking for suggestions on any good reference books on Indian Army uniforms. It would be best if anyone can suggest any in-print books to me, but I'm not any less interested in names of out-of-print works.

Besides just photo references and names of any reference books I'm also trying to sort out a few questions which I hope for some help with.

Most Indian Army uniforms follow a basic pattern, that pattern, for infantry and least (what I'm interested in) being the kurta. There are three features that seem to (roughly) identify period and rank.

1) Buttons. Early on, I'm not sure of what these are made of. But I know that by c.1910 the Indian Army often used composition or horn buttons on uniforms. Does anyone know when these were actually adopted? And what buttons were used before this?

2) Epaulettes. I suspect these may have varied by unit but I'm looking for confirmation. Also, were epaulettes at one point adopted on all field service uniforms?

3) This is the most important to me. Pockets. I've got a rough idea of what pockets on Indian Army uniforms should look like. But when were they adopted, at least on the Frontier? I've seen images dated as early as 1897 showing pockets, and images as late as 1920 showing none. All on khaki infantry kurtas. When were pockets adopted, and for what uniforms?

4) Finally, are there two versions of khaki kurtas for each regiment? One for garrison use and one for field use? And if so, when did the system of two patterns begin in use?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

~TS Allen

Sorry, I seem to have been confused. You are correct, it is second class levee dress.

In any event, I was mostly just surprised that it wasn't first class levee dress.

The Marshal of the Diplomatic Corps a few posts up is a fourth or fifth class uniform, which to me seems rather odd.

Those governor-generals look very impressive. Interesting to note the silver braiding, as well, I'd think such high officials would be granted gold braided as a symbol of their rank.

I was looking at some of these Napoleonic uniforms when I noticed how similar a French Napoleonic general's uniform http://www.fusiliers.com/item_generalv21.html is. Rather amusing, I wonder what people (esp. militaria collectors) would think if you brought this to a show and set it up where the buttons weren't easy to examine closely.

My information buying this uniform was only what the seller told me, my knowledge that it was going to look great in the war room and what I saw on the thread an your uniform. Hopefully the next forum member who buys one of these will have some idea of what he's doing...

Speaking of other diplomatic uniforms, I bought a white consular uniform (post 1902 and I'm guessing the 1930's) from the same source. I'll post it up as soon as it arrives and we'll have fun with some more diplomatic uniforms. I'll keep it on this thread, so keep a look out.

~TS

There are uniforms grander than that? I'd barely have believed that you'd spend that much time, effort, and money fancying up a coat until I saw that booklet!

I've long collected military uniforms but these civil uniforms are starting to make my head spin. I think I should go back to nice, plain red tunic with less then ten pounds of bullion on them. Still, I love the history behind these jackets and they're beautiful to look at.

Being and American I've never been able to fully wrap my head around the British honors system but it is still fascinating that this is the correct uniform for a privy councilor. I've seen the title used before but I always assumed it was a mostly honorary title. Interesting to see some of the privileges it affords.

According to that text, which I assume is quoting the regs, this levee uniform could be substituted for the full dress uniform on all occasions. What little research I did do turned up quite a few full dress uniforms but only one levee dress uniform (actually, I found the only example of levee dress on this forum) and I had assumed, because I only found a handful of uniforms named to high figures, that the full dress pattern was actually unique to commonwealth heads of state or something. That uniform is beautiful! I can only imagine the contemporary cost, as well. I'm going to be on the look out for a print showing a late Victorian State Ball too display with this uniform.

I jumped at this uniform not knowing much about at and probably spent more money that I could afford. But, I'm incredibly happy with it and the more I'm learning the happier I am. I did figure out that the uniform was first class on my own, at least.

James, thanks for that link. The illustrations are great. I've been thumbing through it for a while now.

~TS

Yes, that was something that I wondered about. I was under the impression that a position on the privy council was pretty far up the chain. Out of curiosity, how many people were included in the privy council in this period? I know that now its very rare and assume the same back then? Or was it a slightly more common honor?

I know that the position is often awarded to very senior judges. This fellow is not too far off from the Irish land reforms, and coming from an Irish family (grandfather Protestant, grandmother Catholic, beleive it or not) its a very interesting uniform to have in my collection.

~TS

Well, now that I have a complete name, I've done a little bit of research on my own. Not much, but I have found an obituary. I appreciate everyones help, and if anyone has anything else on this gentleman I'd love to see it.

From http://www.chaptersofdublin.com/books/cemeteries/cem18.htm:

The Right Hon. Stephen Woulfe Flanagan, nephew of Chief Baron Woulfe, and himself a highly distinguished Judge, died 6th December, 1891. He was a member of the Privy Council of England, as well as of that at home; he married the daughter of J. R. Corballis, Q.C., LL.D., and his family vault, crowned by a white marble monument, is found in the O'Connell Circle.

I've also figured out that he was appointed on 22 March 1877 to the Landed Estates Court. That doesn't tell me much but it seems to be the accomplishment he got the most recognition for. He was a magistrate in Sligo County in 1862.

He was also the 'author' of Reports of Cases in Chancery, argued and determined in the Rolls Court during the time of the Right Hon. Sir Michael O'Loghlen, Bart., Master of the Rolls. 1840-1842.

He was born in 1817 in Ratoath Manor, Ireland. His wife was Mary Deborah Corballis, born 1829, died 1886.

I was hoping for a diplomat but this is still a fascinating fellow. I actually didn't know until today that these uniforms were used by non-diplomats. I was always under the impression that the rather more simple 'court dress' that I had often seen was standard for others and that this jacket was limited to the foreign service.

~TS

For a moment I thought this was a case of a medal collector confused by uniforms, but I suspected I would be proven wrong.

That is strange. The insignia must have been direct-embroidered on to the uniform. Very very strange.

~TS

I just picked up a beautiful Victorian era diplomatic uniform from Hogspear's Ebay auctions. Since the auction has only just closed I can't share any pictures of how I'm going to display it but I thought I'd get right on the task of trying to ID it. I'll be sure to post pictures of it and the consular uniform I picked up as soon as they arrive.

The item comes in a beat-up period tin named to the Right Honorable Wolfe Flanagan. The uniform has Victorian buttons. I know that one of these was IDed by forum member a while back, so I hope that I'll have similar luck. I'm not sure if the uniform itself is named but I can't wait to get it, I've never actually seen one in person and I consider it one of the most beautiful uniforms ever made. The names off the tin.

Oh, if anyone's curious and would like to take a look, the Ebay item number is 350142785057. I also picked up a British 'consular' uniform that I decided was worth the chance, I've never seen anything like it outside of pictures before, but I just liked the look of it. I guess I collect British diplomatic corps uniforms, who knew?

Thanks for the help,

~TS

http://www.oakleafmilitaria.com/images/086u2-1.jpg

Is there something unusual about the uniform? To me it looks like a standard wafffenrock, the 'dress uniform' of the German Army in WWII.

~TS

Greatly appreciate all of the information. This place is better than Google.

~TS

I'm assuming that you didn't find anything. Oh well. Appreciate the thought, though.

I'm still looking for references. I'm probably going to go looking through some Ospreys to see if that brings anything up, otherwise I'm still without photographic evidence of their pattern.

~TS

I'm currently looking for a reference for Royal Navy sennet hats from the Victorian period. I think that I may have found one for sale but I've been looking through references and can only find a handful of images.

Thanks,

~TS

There was another German U-boat in WWII that blew up an ammunition-packed frieghter in (I beleive) the Med. A bunch of stuff was blown onto the deck in a similar manner. Sorry for being so vague but I don't have the exact details before me.

One of the items in my shrinking TR collection is the cap insignia from this U-boat, made of brass. Two of the items blown onto the deck were a shee up brass plating and an ax. The ax was stuck in the deck ( ). The captain picked up the ax, which read "[some town], USA" on it and ordered that the new distinctive cap insignia for his boat would be a brass ax with "USA" stamped on it.

I beleive it was U-73 but I'll have to check on that.

~TS

Somewhere around the house I have (or had?) a very substantial length of this in full-size. I found it thrown in with a few USAF epalauttes (same color scheme) in the back of a surplus store. Now I feel like going out and finding mine....

~TS

I'm not sure if you're speaking about Guomindang forces or.... Spaniards? I've got a very basic knowledge of Natioalist Chinese insignia and I've occasionally seen an item or two from the Spanish Civil War, but besides that I'm not really sure what you would be looking for.

~TS

I think they meant the one it was displayed with was Baden-Powell's. I could care less though, I've got no interest in scouting.

I just want to know if it's an original khaki service jacket. It looks about right for the Boer War.

Will send a request for tailor's labels. Good thought, there.

~TS

http://www.manions.com/bid/bid.aspx~itemid...35~pic~20080512

I've seen this listed on Manions a few times. Originally the asking price was around $1500 and I didn't even look at it, thinking it's a fake.

But, at $500, I'm considering it.

The crowns look good to me, Victorian. But, I know nothing about the pattern of these tunics and have no idea how to tell if it is correct. Any help?

Thanks,

~TS

I've always been very careful when buying on manions, I mostly use it to purchase field gear and modern items for my airsoft team.

Still, while the German section has a (deserved) reputation as full of fakes, most items in the US section are quite worth it. I've bought a few unquestionable items on manions that I purchased for as little as 1/10 of what they're worth, and the fact that people are catious to buy from manions only helps along the deal as far as I'm concerned, it means no one bids against me!!!!

And, at least in the US and British sections, Manions staff are very helpful in filling out the description. I once sent them a set of regulations for an item and got back about ten paragraphs about the item in question noting where it differed from regulations. And it was a particularly expensive item either (a few hundred dollars at most).

~TS

http://www.manions.com/bid/bid.aspx~itemid...27~pic~20080404

I was looking through this auction site and came across the above item.

I don't know much about Wollesleys, but this seems plausible. At the same time, the idea of a bullion badge on a pith helmet seems a little bit ridiculous to me and I wonder if its a put-together?

Any ideas?

~TS Allen

I've never had this fully explained to me, and I hope that some of the forum members can provide me with some information on this topic.

I've heard that buttons went from numerical types to patterned types (i.e. the logo or badge of the unit) after the Childers reforms for most regiments. But I also know that the Guards had patterned types from the Napoleonic period on.

Can anyone explain when what regiments adopted patterned buttons? I've also heard of even more confusing things, such as when people try to say that Highland units were 'elite' and got patterned buttons in the Napoleonic period as well.

~TS

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/army...dstream1855.htm

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/army...dstream1856.htm

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/army...dstream1850.htm

This is one example of it. I'm not showing the one I'm going to buy due to my own paranoia.

~TS

I'm considering purchasing a Black Watch "officer's" white drill undress jacket. I've also heard it described as the buff undress jacket, illustrations seem to generally show one or the other.

Unfortunately I can't find a good reference on the jackets. Here's what I know. They were introduced around 1840, from that time worn definately by other ranks by probably not by officers. After the Crimean War they fell out of favour with most of the Army but were maintained in use by the Highland and Guards regiments for the rest of the Victorian age. In 1907 another pattern was introduced, this time a bit longer and less like a shell jacket, but was put aside during the First World War and used rarely after it.

The tunic I'm looking at probably dates to well after the Crimean War, but it isn't dated or named. The problem is, Highland officers don't seem to have worn these around the time of the Crimean War and the Mutiny. I've found quite a few prints of Guard regiments showing only other ranks wearing this jacket, with officers wearing different gear altogether.

So the question I pose is simple. When do you think officers started wearing the same drill jacket as other ranks? Or, if you think they never did, why else would there be single buttons on the shoulder of a drill uniform with gilt buttons?

As noted, all opinions solicited, facts are better, outright lies are acceptable as long as I like what they say.

~TS

That's what I'm starting to think of doing. I'd prefer to wear something that marks me as a (recreated, of course) English officer, but I guess that 1840 is a bit too early for a pith.

I'm thinking about wearing a fatigue-type jacket. You know, the buff/ white one which was used in the summer. Only problem is that I'm not sure if it was ever used in the Royal Marines. Any help?

~TS